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9/11 “Truthers” Harass Shermer on Book Tour

broadcast January 2008 | comments (179)

The latest mother of all conspiracy theories — that 9/11 was an inside job by the Bush administration — finds its members following Michael Shermer around on his book tour.

Ever since Skeptic magazine published an investigative article on the 9/11 “Truth Movement” and analyzed their claims, which were found wanting, I have been hounded by the so-called 9/11 “truthers” because I am the editor of the magazine and therefore am suppose to be a “skeptic” of the official explanation for 9/11.

In fact, throughout January I have been on a book tour for The Mind of the Market, my book on behavioral economics and evolutionary economics, and at every event during the Q & A one of these “truthers” pretends to ask a question about economics but then quickly shifts to a rant about what “really happened” on September 11, 2001.

At my appearance at Powell’s bookstore in Portland, Oregon (January 21), for example, someone with a video camera captured the rambling screed and posted it on YouTube the same night:

For my appearance in Seattle (January 23), my webmeister, Emrys Miller, came prepared with a video camera just in case the “troofers” showed up. Sure enough, one did:

There was no need for a camera in Philadelphia (January 15), as the 9/11 conspiratorialists came prepared with their own recording equipment, and captured the moment here:What’s going on here? As Bill Maher discovered one day during the taping of his HBO series “Real Time,” their goal is just to be heard — in any venue at any time under any circumstances. In spring of 2005, for example, I gave a lecture at the Los Angeles Public Library, after which I was buttonholed by a documentary filmmaker with Michael Moore-ish ambitions of exposing the “truth” about the 9/11 conspiracy, and he wanted to know if he could interview me. I responded, “you mean the conspiracy by Osama bin Laden and his nineteen Al-Qaeda operatives to fly planes into buildings?”

“That’s what they want you to believe,” he said.
“Who is ‘they’,” I queried.
“The government,” he whispered in hushed tones, as if “they” might actually be listening in at that very moment.
“Yeah, well, ‘the government’ is a little vague for me,” I suggested. “Who in the government wants me to believe that Al-Qaeda did it?”
“The Bush administration,” was the by now predictable answer.
“But didn’t Osama and some members of Al-Qaeda not only say they did it,” I reminded him, “they gloated about what a glorious triumph it was over America and western capitalism, materialism, and secularism?”
“Oh, you’re talking about that video of Osama,” he exclaimed knowingly. “That was faked by the C.I.A. and leaked to the American press to mislead us. There has been a disinformation campaign going on ever since 9/11.”
“How do you know?” I inquired.
“Because of all the unexplained anomalies surrounding 9/11,” he answered.
“Such as?”
“Such as the fact that steel melts at a temperature of 2,777 degrees Fahrenheit, but jet fuel burns at only 1,517 degrees Fahrenheit. No melted steel, no collapsed towers.”

At this point I ended the conversation and declined to be interviewed, knowing precisely where the dialogue was going next — if I cannot explain every single minutia about the events of that fateful 11th day in September, 2001, that lack of knowledge, in his mind at least, equates to direct proof that 9/11 was orchestrated by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the CIA in order to implement their plan for global domination and a New World Order, to be financed by G.O.D. (Gold, Oil, Drugs) and launched by a Pearl Harbor-like attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, thereby providing the justification for war. The evidence is there in the details, he explained, handing me faux dollar bill (“9-11” replacing the “1” and Bush supplanting Washington) choc-a-block full of web sites. Where have I heard all this before?

In the early 1990s I launched a full-scale investigation of the Holocaust deniers, initially as the cover story for Skeptic magazine and subsequently expanded into a book length treatment, Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say it? The deniers employ this tactic of anomalies-as-proof to great effect. David Irving, for example, claims that there are no holes in the roof of the gas chamber at Krema 2 at Auschwitz-Birkenau. So what? So plenty, he says. No holes in the roof of the gas chamber at Krema 2 means that the eyewitness account of SS guards climbing up on the roof and pouring Zyklon-B gas pellets through the holes and into the gas chamber below where the prisoners were herded into, means that the eyewitness account is wrong, which means that no one was gassed in Krema 2, which means that no one was gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau, which means that no one was gassed at any prison camp, which means that no Jews anywhere were systematically exterminated by the Nazis. In short, “no holes, no Holocaust,” says David Irving, a slogan emblazoned on t-shirts of his supporters at his London trial in which he sued a historian for calling him a Holocaust denier.

No holes, no Holocaust. No melted steel, no Al-Qaeda attack. The parallels are equal, and equally flawed. And just as I never imagined that Holocaust denial would wend its way into the mainstream press (Irving’s trial was front page news for months), after my above conversation with the filmmaker I never imagined that 9/11 denial would get media legs. But now it has legs for days, and so we have been forced to provide a public response. To read our complete analysis of the claims of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, read eSkeptic from September 11th, 2006.

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179 Comments to “9/11 “Truthers” Harass Shermer on Book Tour”

  1. Albert Yome Says:

    Empty vessels make most sound

  2. Kevin Morgan Says:

    Some people will just keep on believing what they believe despite all the evidence to the contrary. It’s very sad and makes it harder for the “real” conspiracies to be exposed!!!! Sorry, couldn’t resist :-)

  3. George Says:

    I note that the title says “Truthers” , which is plural. Yet this video shows only one individual who seems to be causing a problem. Is Shermer really being “harassed” at every venue, or are people just asking questions?

    The childish name-calling in the video doesn’t help matters. Wow, someone wore a sweatshirt he didn’t like. How awful!

  4. Phil Says:

    Someone piped up at the Seattle reading too.

  5. Wayward Son Says:

    “I note that the title says “Truthers” , which is plural. Yet this video shows only one individual who seems to be causing a problem.”

    Plus the person with the video camera. That makes at least two. If you think these people are just asking innocent questions then you are lucky enough to have not met truthers. They do very often harass and most I have met seem to consider anyone who doesn’t support their views as “uncritical, government lacky’s” etc. I have never met a single truther who could accept that anyone else could have looked at the evidence and the total lack of evidence supporting the truthers and come to opposite conclusion that they have.

  6. Bart Stewart Says:

    Bill Mahrer says debunking the notion of a 9-11 conspiracy is the only instance in which he ever supports George Bush, and I would go along with that.

  7. Tal Says:

    The truth is that when you go to these events, oftentimes the people attending ask softball questions that are essentially springboards for self-congratulation. It’s a sad day when people start ridiculing and scoffing at people asking tough questions. Shermer’s answers were pathetic and display how ill informed he actually is.

  8. Phil Says:

    As some point, these people just need to be told, “shut up and sit down.” The only necessary response is, “read Skeptic Magazine Vol 12 No 4 for my response. Next question.”

  9. bruce Says:

    Honestly, I don’t know about Kennedy, or 911.
    With Kennedy I heard some sophisticated echo location analysis that discerned two locations where loud gunshots were fired in Dealy Plaza, one from the fence on top of the Grassy Knoll. Then someone says it’s wrong. Marksmen say if they had to set up an ambush that would be the place, and to make sure you need crossfire.

    With 911, there are a lot of peculiarities, but the as Shermer says the hidden evidence does not prove demolition explosives, but the government’s reluctance to release data and the strange behavior of the government after 911, the anthrax, and invasion of Iraq are not rational responses.

    No one person can prove this so Shermer’s criterion for evidence is really not in play, it is more like his analogy of one person refusing to fairly share $100 with another person and the person refusing because he does not want to be taken for a chump. There are a lot of chump indications, or questions in 911, more and more historic lies being released like the Gulf Of Tonkin.

    It does seem odd that those building fell so fast and perfectly, and that the place was cleaned up and 100% of the scrap was off to China with no investigation. A lot of the 911 Truth movement is off the wall, but who knows who says what and why, all we know is that there is a lot of evidence and proof missing, and a lot of weird things going on in the government.

  10. Dan Weir Says:

    I find this tack not only dopey but soul sick.

    Yikes.

    DW@SF

  11. The Presidential Candidates Says:

    I think the problem is that the current 9/11 conspiracy theories are way off the mark (bombs in the buildings etc.) Isn’t it more likely that some people in the Bush admin. knew about the impending attacks and sort of “let” them happen?

  12. Kellie White Says:

    I was at the Powells event. These people would not shut up, and they did not have a question. They need to understand that freedom of speech does mean that I have to listen to them!! And they essentially forced everyone there to listen to them, for a few minutes anyhow.

    I wonder how they would react if someone pretended to agree that it was a conspiracy, but thought space aliens were behind it … the lizard-headed ones. “Do you have any evidence it was the Bush administration and not lizard-headed space aliens?”

    If anyone tries this please let me know how it works out for you.

  13. John P. Jones Says:

    Shermer and Maher wouldn’t happen to be a couple of rummies who’s strings are pulled, at least in part, by the likes of AIPAC and Abe Foxman …. would they? Why did Shermer need to use the Holocaust analogy? I’ll tell you why, because certain techniques are effective in stifling debate. You know … call someone a “racist”, an “anti-Semite”, a “conspiracist” in an attempt to end legitimate discussion. Here, Shermer uses “conspiratorialist”, like that really adds to the effect. To state that our own (U.S.) government would NOT entertain the idea of attacking its own citizens is a load of manure. One needn’t go any further than Googling “Operation Northwoods” to put that notion to rest. I want to hear what Shermer or Maher have to say about Operation Northwoods (1962), and then … because I’m sure they’ve got some great one word answers (like “truthers”) … ask Shermer and Maher to explain the 1967 USS Liberty incident. Everything Shermer and Maher say has to take into serious consideration what side of their bread needs buttering, and who’s controlling the butter. Shermer’s words are only that … words. Quite often they’re without substance, fact or reality. If there’s something to be skeptical of … it’s him.

    Come on, Shermer … tell me about the conspiracy of Operation Northwoods! Before the truth about it was declassified, there we had “truthers” and “conspiratorialists”.

    PS: I realize “conspiratorialist” is a word, but it sure seems like you pulled it out of your (GWB) signed copy of “Bushisms”.

  14. The Flying Trilobite Says:

    *sigh*

    As Phil said above, “read Skeptic Magazine Vol 12 No 4″ and then come back to the discussion.

    Not so you can dogmatically follow the Skeptic Mag / Shermer party line, but so that you’ve read the actual science and engineering reconstructions of the entire events.

    Please. Reason and rationality are awesome, come back to the good side of your brains.

  15. Oshkosh John Says:

    I went out and Googled Operation Northwoods, and checked the resulting Wikipedia article. The plot was, my opinion, the result of brainstorming in a series of meetings. In such meetings, every idea that arises is considered as equally valid until every available idea is aired. When everyone has spoken the ideas are discussed, and the impractical or impossible ideas are discarded. Usually classified notes are taken. Then members of the group separate and discuss the set of ideas further. More classified memos and notes. Finally, the group leader or CEO or President or Department Head makes a decision to try the best idea or to discard them all as unworkable. Conspiracy buffs need to get out more.

  16. bruce Says:

    whatever you call it skepticism or belief, nothing can be proven about 911 … so people fill the void with what they feel – intuit – about the government … this intuitive “wisdom” can be spectacularly right or wrong, and you cannot blame the 911 people for what they think, but they ought not let it push them overboard.

    my question to them always is, what do you want to do about it? so???? I don’t hear answers from them because there is nothing they can do and that makes them even angrier and more paranoid, but it also does not mean they are not right about part of what they think, but it doesn’t prove anything.

  17. b. j. edwards Says:

    Mr. John P. Jones,

    You complain about a Holocaust analogy but completely miss that the analogy has to do with DENIAL. Denial is denial is denial whether it is denying the Holocaust, denying than man landed on the Moon, denying that the Earth is round, or denying the extraordinary massive evidence from thousands of independent sources (none of which originated with, or is controlled, by the “government”) that all converge on the solid conclusion, never refuted by you “Truthers” that Arab hijackers were responsible for the attacks of 9/11.

    You should sit down and start to use your critical faculties about this rather than just believe what a relatively few people want you to believe. The 9/11 “Truth” Movement is, always has been, and always will be, the 9/11 Denial Movement. Use your own brain to find out why.

  18. JF William Says:

    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”- George Orwell

    Can’t we agree on a few things ?

    Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis

    Isn’t a healthy questioning of what appears to be reality at the base of any scientific quest ?

    Now, it was just made public that the Bush/Cheney administration has lied close to a 1000 times to achieve their goals. Woudn’t it be normal to, at least, marginally doubt a little what they’ve been saying about 9-11 ?

    While I have all the admiration in the world for a healthy skeptic, I find it hard to believe that all these, obviously hard working citizen, are all stupid douche bags… http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/ and these too… http://stj911.org/index.html

    While on the other hand, 90 something % of American believe in an invisible giant in the sky who you turn to when you’re about to die… so go figure ;)

    My first double take about 9-11 happened when they said, a few hours after the event, that the passport of one of the highjacker was found lying on the street… I just went hummm… how quaint ;)

    Same thing happened when I saw JFK’s head yack to the back when the fatal shot hit him… last time I checked, the laws of gravity also apply in Texas ;)

    So, I feel both sides still have a lot of explaining and searching to do… The mystery, rapped into an enigma syndrome is here to stay. Meanwhile a devastating war is going on… and that’s the fact jack ;)

    How about a campaign against the five curses of humanity : war, poverty, environmental destruction, ignorance and disease. Now that would yield better results for everyone but the industrial/military/media complex.

    ” He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable an ignorable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.” – Albert Einstein

  19. paul fauvet Says:

    John P. Jones and other “truthers” conveniently forget that 9/11 was the second attack on the World Trade Centre. The first was the truck bomb of 1993, for which Al-Qaeda operative Ramzi Youssef is currently serving a life sentence.

    Since Al-Qaeda had tried, and failed, to bring the towers down in 1993, why is it do hard for Jones to imagine that they might try again, with greater success, in 2001 ? Or does he imagine that the 1993 bomb was “an inside job” too ?

    Then we have the deadly Al-Qaeda attacks on the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Were they too all part of a fiendish conspiracy in the White House ?

    The 9/11 attacks were horrific acts of mass murder – but they were also bold, imaginative, and carefully prepared, attributes which are notably absent from the usual behaviour of the Bush administration.

    To accept the “truthers” propositions we have to imagine, not only that the Bush administration is supremely competent (because only exceptionally competent people can devise and carry out such a complex operation), but also that it is fearless.

    For the reason government officials might baulk at flying planes into skyscrapers is not just that they might have moral objections to killing thousands of Americans on American soil. They might also be afraid of getting caught.

    Many members of Congress wanted to impeach Clinton over a blow job, so what would they have done if faced with evidence that Bush or Cheney had authorised a massacre in the centre of New York ? Would the notoriously cowardly George Bush really have risked impeachment, a treason trial and quite possibly the death sentence, merely to manufacture an excuse for going to war against Afghanistan ?

  20. Steve Says:

    I’d really like to see a whole article on the human tendency to believe conspiracy theories. There seems to be a certain percentage of people who are just wired this way, such that it really doesn’t matter which conspiracy we’re talking about… they’re all true and they’re almost all related.

    It seems to me that for many of these people, the idea that there is some powerful group of people behind these terrible actions, deceiving us and hiding the truth, just resonates. The fact that it’s true is just immediately obvious to them, on an emotional level. Then they proceed to collect a bunch of evidence to support the conclusion that they’ve already drawn, and evidence countering anything that could disprove it, feeding off each other’s belief the whole time. When they present this so-called evidence, it makes the rest of us feel that their conclusions might be based on rational thinking, and could therefore be countered with rational counter-explanations. But in fact, the conclusions are pre-determined, so it’s impossible to open a real dialog.

    So, what is it about the human psyche that causes people who are rational enough to live their daily lives to also be swayed so far from rationality in certain circumstances? I found it fascinating that the guy in one of the videos describes himself as a skeptic. I suspect that he doesn’t really understand what that means, but a great future article would be “Conspiracy Theories: Skepticality Gone Wrong”.

  21. Steve Says:

    The CBC documentary, “The Secret History of 9/11″, is a fascinating time-line approach to who knew what and when prior to the attacks. The title might grab a few “troofers”, or people who have doubts, but the whole presentation is based on interviews and well-documented information suggesting that Al Qaeda was responsible, and the US just blew it on so many levels in dealing with the threat.

  22. Bob Says:

    I see no mention (yet) of the January 25th event at Books Inc. in Mountain View California, but there was a “truther” there as well. But he didn’t even pretend to be asking a question about economics.

  23. Steven Sashen Says:

    What I’ve noticed when I argue with 9/11 conspiracy theorists is the following logical flaw:

    The government’s report is not 100% accurate, therefore there MUST be a conspiracy.

    Or, they posit, if every t is not crossed and every i is not dotted, CLEARLY there’s a conspiracy.

    It makes me think of the joke: The lack of evidence is the surest sign the conspiracy is working.

    Or, similarly, they believe that *because* they can come up with A STORY to explain events with, that proves the story is true… no different from Intelligent Design supporters who use the same logic.

    Perhaps the REAL problem is that this country has no history of genuine debate. You can’t say to a conspiracy theorist, “But that’s a straw man argument,” and have them understand what you mean, let alone pause and say, “Oh, you’re right.” Without being able to discuss the argument itself, all discussions devolve into a bad episode of Jerry Springer.

  24. Rob Says:

    It seems to me that the 9/11 truth conspiracy is different because of it’s magnitude and becuase of the efficiency of the internet to carry and spread memes. Not only the numerous websites, but more mainstream sites like youtube and wiki that introduce the idea to more people than would have been exposed in advance. Mind viruses spread because they are good at spreading and it doesn’t reflect on their relevant “truthiness”.

    I admit I haven’t read all of the arguments involved and was myself intially skeptical of circumstances involved in 9/11, but the payoff for the government doing something like that doesn’t seem to gain anything. If it was the war, well they can really go to war with whoever they like on thinner pretenses couldn’t they? WMDs anyone?

    I expect this to be a bigger problem in the future. I agree with the previous poster. What are the truthers going to do about it besides harass people who disagree and disrupt book tours and live television?

  25. M.F. Dilley Says:

    It has always been interesting to me that peope who find conspiracies say that the “government” or whoever is behind the conspiracy is so smart that this secret was hatched and executed and no one was ever able to find it out in advance to stop it. Yet, at the same time, those responsible were no careless that someone who has no inside knowledge or connection is able to find out about it. I guess it’s like eating your cake and having it, too. Both can’t be true.

  26. Red Saber Says:

    Rudy wanted to become president, so he staged 9/11 to get the worlds attention. He even turned down money from the Saudi’s who wanted to clean up their image. It’s as plain as the nose on M. Jackson’s face, or was that the Sphinx?

  27. David Says:

    One has to wonder whether the reference to a “T-shit” worn by a Holocaust denier is a Freudian slip? :-)

  28. Steve Says:

    I think it’s time to start fighting fire with fire. Here’s my counter-conspiracy argument:

    9/11 was indeed a conspiracy… of little green aliens from the planet Memron. They seek to take over the Earth, but there are currently too few of them for an outright military victory. So they launched the 9/11 attack to destabilize world governments in preparation for an eventual invasion.
    Osama bin Laden and all participants in the hijackings (and/or missile attack, depending how far gone you are) are memronians in human form. So is everyone who “let it happen.”

    But when the memronians found that the plan was not entirely effective, they inhabited the bodies of net-savvy citizens worldwide in order to propagate the idea of a US government conspiracy, with the goal further destabilizing the most powerful military on the planet.

    “That’s right ‘truther’… YOU are an alien! You’re being controlled, perhaps even without your knowledge, in an attempt to prepare the planet for a complete alien takeover! Prove that it’s false. Can’t? OK book club… get him!”

  29. N. O'Brain Says:

    “Isn’t it more likely that some people in the Bush admin. knew about the impending attacks and sort of “let” them happen?”

    No.

  30. Pam Miller Says:

    I have a “theory” about the 9/11 Truthers and other conspiracy theorists. I suspect that if you look at them closely you’ll find a common thread. They’re all sad losers in the game of life. People whose actual accomplishments have fallen far short of their own belief in their abilities. Except for a few dynamic and enterprising “prophets” who gather a following of these losers and make a good living doing so, they are for the most part well below average in documented accomplishments. They’re all going to disappear when they die without leaving the slightest trace on the world except a little documentation showing their birth, marriage, death, and driving records.

    They can’t admit it, of course, but they are driven by a sick need to feel important that is stymied by the fact that they’re so irrational, unpalatable and weak-minded personally that they couldn’t even get elected to the local animal control board.

    So they latch onto something that makes them feel important and they fantasize that they’re going to be hunted by some shadowy government force that might somehow do them in to shut them up. They gather together and tell each other ghost stories to get themselves all shivery and excited. They publically harass people who have actually accomplished something to make themselves feel strong, potent and dangerous, when the truth is that they are nothing of the sort. It’s like an adrenaline addiction, a stimulating drug they can create internally.

    No government conspiracy actually exists and they’re in no danger from any shadowy conspirators, but they get a tremendous thrill from believing it and imagining that someone might be after them and that they might be performing a tremendous public service that the world will thank them for later. For them, it’s just safe fun to worry and fuss and engender panic and fear wherever they go.

    They repeat uncorroborated gossipy information and rumors about their topic and claim that it’s being “suppressed” when it’s actually just being reasonably ignored because it’s wrong, distorted, or blatently spurious. They rabidly yap about it endlessly on the topic to their family and acquintances and rudely dominate the conversations they have with normal people who are too polite to tell them to buzz off.

    It’s been going on for millennia. People crawl out of the woodwork with conspiracy theories every time there’s a dramatic and distressing public event. It’s predictable, but also boring and depressing to see people being so stupid without having the slightest awareness that they’re acting like idiots.

  31. W. Ron Hess Says:

    Dr. Shermer:
    I can sympathize with your not wanting to be associated with “conspiracy theorists” who have woefully insufficient factual basis for their flakey theories. But not all conspiracy theories are baseless. Especially ones in past societies dominated by a totalitarian (or monarchical) regime.

    I’d like to invite you to explore “the Shakespeare authorship question” by reading a bit from my website (it’s a bit out of date) and .pdf versions of my two self-published books entitled “The Dark Side of Shakespeare.” The .pdf for Vol. I is at http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595247776&page=1, and Vol. II at http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595293905&page=1.

    The first step in this “conspiracy theory” is to acknowledge that what we know about the incumbent candidate for the author of the works attributed to “William Shake-speare” [deliberate hyphen] is essentially inconsistent with his having authored anything at all (i.e., in an age where men and women were predominately unlettered and should be presumed illiterate until proven otherwise, the man from Stratford-upon-Avon seems have been illiterate!). The second step is to evaluate which of the many more-appropriate candidates best had the travels, education, experiences, etc. depicted in the works.

    That’s why the “Oxfordian” theory (that Shakespeare’s works were originated by the 17th Earl of Oxford, Edward DeVere) has the strongest case in its favor (although its one serious weakness is that Oxford died in 1604, meaning that many of the works were “originated” before his death, but were first performed or published only after his death; which by the way is a detraction from the orthodox candidate having died in 1616, 7 years before half of the plays first were published!). The key information in favor of Oxford was that he, and only he among realistic candidates, visited Milan, Florence, and Sicily, among other places that Shakespeare’s plays most vividly depicted in the foreign locales that about half the plays were set in. In some plays, it’s hard to dismiss the fact that the author “had to have traveled to” the locales involved in order to depict specific information about towers, bridges, acoustics, hidden or secret entrances, etc. I’ve even summarized this argument with, “Whoever Shakespeare really was, he appears to have traveled in Oxford’s itinerary, possibly in Oxford’s hip pocket!”

    After glancing through my material, on my webpage are a few links to other sources you can examine. I suggest that if you assign one of your staff to do a bit of research into “the Shakespeare authorship question,” you could do quite a few solid articles to dismiss the bunk which orthodox Stratfordian scholars have been propounding, even if you don’t particularly agree with my Oxfordian slant (i.e., one recently-propouded alternative candidate has been Sir Fulke Greville, Lord Brooke, a friend and biographer of Sir Philip Sidney, who held estates near and the post of Recorder of Stratford-upon-Avon, and whose own plays and sonnets were principally published only after his death in 1628).

    Regards, and keep up the good “Skeptics” work!

  32. kelly Says:

    the theories about 911 and religion have a lot in common, great leaps of faith.
    whatever you want to believe about 911 does not matter but watching bldg 7 collapse destroys the suspension of disbelief. iv have heard everyones, skeptics included “idea” about the collapse, sorry people it was a controlled demolition collapse. it is one thing to speculate about all the details in regard to 911 but the collapse of bldg 7 is what it is.

  33. Peter Says:

    For Michael Shermer to say that, “But didn’t Osama and some members of Al-Qaeda not only say they did it” is really ridiculous. Would we trust Charles Manson to tell the truth? His REASONING is quite lacking. On the one hand, Bin Laden is this evil terrorist who is crafty and wicked, will pull any trick to get what he wants, yet we are supposed to take him at his word. This is just plain ridiculous reasoning. Also, it is ridiculous for Shermer to dismiss the possibility that our government could carry out a false flag black op, because nearly all governments, if not all, throughout history, including the USA, have staged events to get us into war. That´s just a common stardard technique, and to think otherwise is just naive. So it´s curious and strange — again poor reasoning — that Shermer did not at least bring up this possibility. Now, about whether the Twin Towers came down by controlled demolition or not, that is really irrelevant. Why? They came down. Period. Arguing over why they came down is too much of a distraction from the need to put Bush & Company in prison for international war crimes. That´s what we should be focusing on. I personally feel they let 911 happen. Maybe they were involved in letting it happen — the Bin Laden family and the Bush family have long been business associates, which is another thing Shermer avoids — because they were talking about invading Iraq from DAY ONE (this according to O´Neill and others). Either Bush and Cheney and Rove and all these mafia goons are complete incompetent idiots, or they let 911 happen to serve their goals. Given how they have been behaving, lying and lying and lying and committing one war crime after another, it is an EASY reasoning jump to say they let 911 happen because it´s in the same vein of ickyness. So let´s stop arguing about how the Twin Towers came down, it´s just too big of a distraction. What IS abundantly clear is that they have committed international war crimes and they very likely let 911 happen. Remember “divide and conquer”? Well, if we get distracted by proving 911 an inside job and we don´t focus enough on putting these goons in prison, they have definitely succeeded, once again, with this technique.

  34. Peter Says:

    HOW ABOUT SOME BALANCED THINKING? SOME GOOD REASONING?
    (THIS REFERS TO BOTH “TRUTHERS” AND MICHAEL SHERMER)

    For Michael Shermer to say that, “But didn’t Osama and some members of Al-Qaeda not only say they did it” is really ridiculous. Would we trust Charles Manson to tell the truth? His REASONING is quite lacking. On the one hand, Bin Laden is this evil terrorist who is crafty and wicked, will pull any trick to get what he wants, yet we are supposed to take him at his word. This is just plain ridiculous reasoning. Also, it is ridiculous for Shermer to dismiss the possibility that our government could carry out a false flag black op, because nearly all governments, if not all, throughout history, including the USA, have staged events to get us into war. That´s just a common stardard technique, and to think otherwise is just naive. So it´s curious and strange — again poor reasoning — that Shermer did not at least bring up this possibility. Now, about whether the Twin Towers came down by controlled demolition or not, that is really irrelevant. Why? They came down. Period. Arguing over why they came down is too much of a distraction from the need to put Bush & Company in prison for international war crimes. That´s what we should be focusing on. I personally feel they let 911 happen. Maybe they were involved in letting it happen — the Bin Laden family and the Bush family have long been business associates, which is another thing Shermer avoids — because they were talking about invading Iraq from DAY ONE (this according to O´Neill and others). Either Bush and Cheney and Rove and all these mafia goons are complete incompetent idiots, or they let 911 happen to serve their goals. Given how they have been behaving, lying and lying and lying and committing one war crime after another, it is an EASY reasoning jump to say they let 911 happen because it´s in the same vein of ickyness. So let´s stop arguing about how the Twin Towers came down, it´s just too big of a distraction. What IS abundantly clear is that they have committed international war crimes and they very likely let 911 happen. Remember “divide and conquer”? Well, if we get distracted by proving 911 an inside job and we don´t focus enough on putting these goons in prison, they have definitely succeeded, once again, with this technique.

  35. Barry Says:

    The credo of the conspiracy theorist is, “nothing bad ever happens by accident.”

    What the conspiracy theorist cannot accept is that terrible, evil things happen to innocent people, unpreventably, through no fault of their own. They believe that if we could stop conspiracies, then many bad things — wars, terror, killings — would not happen.

    In some ways this is an idealistic world view, idealistic but flawed. In real life Occam prevails.

    By the way, Bill Bryson demolishes the shakespeare

  36. Barry Says:

    By the way, Bill Bryson demolishes the Shakespeare story that anyone other than William Shakespeare did the work. See “Shakespeare, The World As Stage”

  37. Ed Stockelbach Says:

    Maybe, maybe not.

    One thing not adequately considered, IMHO, is that strange coincidences do happen.

    It is entirely possible that the Bush White House knew the airplane attack was coming, but we’ll never know. The point is, there could easily be more than one ‘conspiracy’.

    An example of strange coincidences is the battle between the Gestapo and the Red Orchestra, a chain of Soviet spy-cells that operated across Europe. Due to stupidity at Moscow Center, the German AD became aware that the head cell of the RO was in Paris.

    So, the Gestapo took over a half-floor of a Paris office building, and set to work. Across the hall, occupying the other half of the floor, was a rainwear import-export company, Simexco. For almost a year, the Simexco executives would exchange morning greetings with the Gestapo. One Monday morning, the Germans arrived to find the Simexco offices empty. 24 hours later, they found that the RO cell they were after had been right across the hall!

  38. DC Says:

    Peter,

    yes, the government stages false flag operations… and we tend to know about them really quick and unequivocally (Gulf of Tonkin, USS Maine). They only need to be kept secret for a few weeks, as a rule, and then nobody cares anymore. And, they tend to involve very, very few people – mostly military, and they generally do not affect civilians. For obvious reasons – since it would be much harder to keep that kind of thing quiet.

    The ONLY thing that one could plausibly argue is thet 9/11 was a welcome opportunity to do what was wanted long before (remodel the Mid-East). If it had been an inside job, why not pin it on Hussein right away? Why on Osama and go to Afghanistan(!) first? Makes no sense.

    Pearl Harbour is another case where it is plausible to argue that the government might have intentionally let things happen to get into the war, but would you argue the US government had LAUNCHED

  39. Curt Cameron Says:

    Oshkosh John wrote:
    “I went out and Googled Operation Northwoods, and checked the resulting Wikipedia article. The plot was, my opinion, the result of brainstorming in a series of meetings.”

    Further, Operation Northwoods, ill-conceived as it was, didn’t even propose the harming of any citizens. Its purpose was to fake damage, not to really carry it out. I don’t see how the fact that A did not do B, would support the idea that C did D.

  40. Becknerized Says:

    “No holes, no Holocost” reminds me of another famous anomalies-as-proof argument. It starts with “If the glove doesn’t fit…”

    Thanks for the article, Michael. Some “troofers” are operating on the supposition that if they can convince one or two high profile skeptics, then their theories will be validated, or at least sanctified. This seems to fit, hand in glove, with the notion that the actual truth is not as important as what others can be persuaded to believe.

    Given the stupendous ignorance, obstinate logical errors, and willful factual omissions of these 9/11 tall tales, one has to wonder if there is any point in logical refutation. Throughout history, logic has too often played the part of imagination’s ugly sister.

    Captivated by dramatic stories of false flag attacks, factions within factions, and high-tech wizardry, the 9/11 buffs simply opt out of the relatively pedestrian possibility that 19 guys, with nothing but boxcutters, cold resolve, and a diabolically brilliant idea, perpetrated perhaps the most spectacular crime in history, against the most powerful nation in history. In my own experience, I have found that it seldom pays to argue. At best I come off as the buzzkill in the cheap seats who exposes the magician’s trick

    It is wounded national pride that drives these theories, rising from a deep seated shame that our vulnerabilities could be so easily exposed. To those who found themselves shell-shocked by the sight of the gaping hole where the twin symbols of American might once stood, it is a saving grace to believe that an all-powerful secret government cabal executed the attack of 9/11 as part of a broader plan to maintain US military and economic hegemony in the world. To those whose nationalism spills over into narcissism, it is decidedly more comforting to be the subjects of skillful, albeit heartless and self-serving masterminds, than it is to be caught phoning it in by a handful of seriously pissed-off, but otherwise ordinary fanatics.

    Despite my own sense of shame that some of my most intelligent friends drink the conspiracy kool-aid, I console myself with the thought that all of this is, for many of them, a natural phase of denial that will gradually give way to acceptance. One can only hope that this phase is over soon, because there are plenty of real conspiracies out there, more urgent, and more deserving of America’s better minds.

  41. The Good, The Bad, The Spin » Blog Archive » Thinking About Delusional Thinking: How recent attacks on Michael Shermer amplify the impact of fantastic beliefs Says:

    [...] Nobody understands the phenomenon of delusional thinking perhaps better than Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic Magazine and author of numerous books including Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time. As of this writing, Shermer is on a book tour promoting his new book, The Mind of the Market: Compassionate Apes, Competitive Humans, and Other Tales from Evolutionary Economics(a review on this blog is forthcoming). At many of his stops, he began noticing faux questions being asked by what are, in fact, 9/11 conspiracy theorists attending to espouse their ideas and, essentially, disrupt Shermer’s talks. Shermer writes about, and documents with video, truther harassment here. [...]

  42. mark eyestone Says:

    I like to consider myself a rational and skeptical thinker and there is just too much in the “official” government story of 9-11 that demands a great deal of skepticism. The fact that all FAA protocol regarding crash investigation was disregarded is a huge red flag; without a proper investigation of the physical evidence there is no way to verify (or disprove) the government line. If nothing else, all of the inconsistencies, holes, and conflicting eyewitness reports warrant an independant investigation (although, with all evidence having been disappeared, such an investigation would be limited from the start.)

    If it walks like a highly-engineered controlled demolition, and quacks like a highly-engineered controlled demolition…and we should not forget that the Gulf of Tonkin incident, among others, was a so-called “false flag” operation staged by our own government as a way to escalate in Vietnam.

  43. Aldo Marquis CIT Says:

    Hello Mr. Shermer and readers,

    I am just here to tell you that we have proven 9/11 an inside by thoroughly investigating the Pentagon and proving there most definitely was a deception that took place that day.

    We have interviewed witnesses on location, victims, firefighters, cameramen, photographers, police officers. The evidence we have obtained is conclusive and is a very simply detail that blows the entire case wide open.

    I seriously suggest that Mr. Shermer not lump everyone into this “harassing truther” category as we have obtained very serious evidence that deserves the utmost attention. We’d be glad to discuss the details with Mr. Shermer if he is interested, and he should be. To ignore this matter would be a great disservice to our country and tantamount to treason.

    Aldo Marquis
    Citizen Investigation Team
    ThePentaCon.com

  44. side show slob Says:

    this is intitled:sombody please throw us a rope ….it seems that in most peoples minds today there are few difining lines between questions & statments this “a simple fact”or rather a brick wall that is an enormous problem in the world today…thats a statment” i call this false independance or “self isolationism” no” i thinkk we are all together in this whether we like it or not…its a litte trick we play on ouwselves with hope that it will speed up the prosses of finding the the truth kinda like thinking less is more is good” or bad is good”…..big mistake ? why is there so much time’effort “and energy spent on “trying” to be good as if good is some place or a goal far far awy arent we already there? good ? now thats a question ! see? ….but no worries theres a new fronteer …why dont we try and learn a new approch wich is instead of making statments about questions that are being raised .. ask more questions.. or just give our best effort to answer them ? arent questions suposed to be asked when the anser is unknown ? are we just waisting time intill are time is up ? come on lets not kid around less is less and no more than that! for michle shermer to ask a question is ok and what was asked was asked hence {not a statement!} looking for the truth ? just ask” anyway whats shermer got with any of this ? hes just turnig over rocks …looking for answers ….skeptile minds whant to know ? the sun is beginning to shine lets move on to bigger questions like” why dont we know wich toilet paper feels best on our asses” ? or if we unplugged the cable and and stuck it in our ears would we get all 350 channels of ansers at once? oh ” and maybe we shuold stop settin the alarm clock to excuse us 15 mins ahead of ourselves ? dont be alarmed there just questions ! can someone please throw us a rope ? second thought forget it. measages from the outernet

  45. paul fauvet Says:

    Al-Qaeda for years publicly boasts that the United States is its number one enemy. Al-Qaeda tries, but fails, to destroy the World Trade Centre in 1993. Al-Qaeda attacks a variety of other US targets elsewhere in the world (USS Cole, the embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam). When the Twin towers are destroyed in 2001, Al-Qaeda claims responsibility.

    Most of us would use Occam’s Razor and conclude that there is a very high probability that Al-Qaeda did it ! But for the “truthers” there is a secret cabal that rules the world (and, in the more extreme versions, it’s a Zionist/Jewish cabal), pulls the strings on US administrations, and must have destroyed the World Trade Centre. Any evidence to the contrary is dismissed as an elaborate smokescreen thrown up by the masterminds of the cabal.

    It’s the same mindset that blamed the illuminati/freemasons/jews for the French or Russian revolutions.

    Of course a momentous historical event such as 9/11 has its puzzles and loose ends. That’s the nature of major events – they’re not neat and tidy. But most of the supposed anomalies (such as the collapse of WTC7) have by now been investigated and plausible explanations proposed.

    Among the obvious problems with the conspiracy theory is that it would have required dozens, if not hundreds, of government officials to keep absolutely quiet about what had really happened. And US political culture is not like that. Washington leaks, and there are still enough journalists of integrity in the US media to pick up those leaks and blow the lid off real conspiracies (as happened with Watergate).

    The fact that, over six years after the event, no official of any US Agency has come forward with any inside knowledge of a plot to hijack airliners and fly them into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, is strong evidence that the only real plot was the one cooked up by Osama Bin Laden.

    As for the crazed idea that the Earl of Oxford wrote the works of Shakespeare, no serious scholar of 16th and 17th century literature believes it. It is an example of crass snobbery – since a middle class, grammar school lad from Stratford could not have written masterpieces, they must all be the work of a member of our born rulers, the aristocracy!

  46. John Mac Says:

    I have, sadly, come to the conclusion that the only universal negative that can be easily proven is the statement “No one could be stupid enough to believe that!” Dr. Shermer was right to end the interview. It is pointless to attempt a rational conversation with an irrational person. Why waste your time or theirs?

  47. Dan Lynch Says:

    There is something going on here that needs to be investigated.

    A small but vocal group of people are eager to invent a phony cause to blame an administration that has committed a plethora real high crimes and misdemeanors against the American people.

    Why would they do this? They expect to gain something from taking this absurd position, what? What is wrong with condemning a crime that cannot be disproved – making war on Iraq, for instance?

    To say that somebody is a nut explains nothing.

  48. side show slob Says:

    power to the people ” oh” more= ansers and questions.. less =statments oh yah “thanks mike” .

  49. Aldo Marquis CIT Says:

    Again, I suggest you all stop talking and start learning.

    We have evidence that now proves 9/11 was an inside job.
    You weren’t there, these witnesses were. Their placement of the plane is IRRECONCILABLE with the physical damage and the security gate cam footage that shows an object with a tail fin low and level across the lawn. The witnesses NEVER gained knowledge of the official flight path and physical damage and for that reason they were oblivious to and didn’t realize the implications of what they were telling us. For that we should all be thankful and we should now rush to action.

    I defy anyone here to tell these witnesses that the plane was on the other side of the gas station.

    It approached on the north side of the gas station, therfore 9/11 has been proven to be an inside job.

  50. Jim Lippard Says:

    Analysis of Pentagon light pole damage and path of plane, including video animation:

    http://www.pentagonresearch.com/lamps.html

  51. Morbidly Cheerful Says:

    Its unfortunate to have people harassing the events. Even more so by people who happen to believe their own BS.

    Heres to hoping they get bored with it eventually and move on. I wouldn’t hold my breath though. It gets heavy, might choke and even die.

  52. John Wagner Says:

    I just couldn’t resist!
    ______________________

    So many idiots and so little time!

    It seems to me that at some time during the evolution of man the “idiot gene” crept in……or maybe a god stepped in and just gave us that pesky gene for the fun of it. But with reason and logic many people seem to learn how to control this ugly gene and others just can’t seem to get control of that little pest. We all do idiotic things at times but there are some people who can’t suppress the “idiot gene” and it just raises its ugly head and turns them into full blown idiots!

    Wouldn’t it be great if there was an accurate “idiot gene” detector that could measure the out of control level of the hopeless ones and we could identify them and place them in an appropriate holding section and not waste valuable time answering any of their weird questions! [Gee… guess that would be profiling!]

    It is a shame with so many important things to talk about that the “truthers” and “conspiracy quacks” can interrupt reasonable presentations and thoughts of people like Michael Shermer.

    There is also a flip side to this debate. Some of the people that condemn Bush for being too stupid to accomplish such a conspiracy do not have the sense to accept the principle that we are actually in a war confronting world terrorism….and it is serious! This is a complex world and Bush has made mistakes but he did not order the planes to fly into the Twin Towers and he does know that Radical Islamic terrorists did it. That puts him many points ahead of those possessed by the “idiot gene!”

    There are intelligent debates and then…idiotic ones!

    We should think Michael Shermer and Bill Maher for reminding us that there is a line that is only crossed by those with the “100% idiot gene!”

    Someone will probably say I’m “name” calling.

    John

  53. Aradan Says:

    9/11 conspiracy theorists should take an objective step back and rexamine their ideas through the lens of Carl Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit:

    – Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the “facts.”

    – Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.

    – Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts.

    – Spin more than one hypothesis. If there’s something to be explained, think of all the different ways in which it could be explained. Then think of tests by which you might systematically disprove each of the alternatives. What survives, the hypothesis that resists disproof in this Darwinian selection among “multiple working hypotheses,” has a much better chance of being the right answer than if you had simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.

    – Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it’s yours. It’s only a way station in the pursuit of knowledge. Ask yourself why you like the idea. Compare it fairly with the alternatives. See if you can find reasons for rejecting it. If you don’t, others will.

    -Quantify. If whatever it is you’re explaining has some measure, some numerical quantity attached to it, you’ll be much better able to discriminate among competing hypotheses. What is vague and qualitative is open to many explanations. Of course there are truths to be sought in the many qualitative issues we are obliged to confront, but finding them is more challenging.

    -If there’s a chain of argument, every link in the chain must work (including the premise) — not just most of them.

    -Occam’s Razor. This convenient rule-of-thumb urges us when faced with two hypotheses that explain the data equally well to choose the simpler.

    -Always ask whether the hypothesis can be, at least in principle, falsified. Propositions that are untestable, unfalsifiable are not worth much. Consider the grand idea that our Universe and everything in it is just an elementary particle — an electron, say — in a much bigger Cosmos. But if we can never acquire information from outside our Universe, is not the idea incapable of disproof? You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and see if they get the same result.

    Parting thoughts:
    How likely is it that the same government and Administration who could not even coordinate an effective response to Hurricane Katrina could internally orchestrate and coordinate something as complicated as the 9/11 conspiracy that the “Truthers” claim happened?. Not very.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence…

  54. Sheldon Robidoux Says:

    My answer to the deniers/conspiracy theorists would be that it was not necessary for steel to reach it’s melting point. It has been made clear by experts that the strength of steel diminishes at well below the melting temperature. Even non-engineers know about this process. So a structure can be compromised without any melting. There is no discrepancy in that regard. On the other hand, if the discussion of 9-11 is off topic, then I say don’t address it at all. Show the offenders to the door.

  55. George Says:

    # Wayward Son Says:
    (January 25th, 2008 at 7:50 pm)

    “If you think these people are just asking innocent questions then you are lucky enough to have not met truther”

    You are correct – the first “Truther” that I had met was at Shermer’s lecture in Philadelphia on the 15th. Contrary to what you’re saying, he was polite and articulate. Furthermore he did not mention the demolition theories; he focused primarily on behind-the-scene whistleblowers.

    After the lecture had ended, an older man walked up to him and started yelling, “you’re sick! sick!” and walked away. He had no interest in discussion or civility, and obviously hadn’t heard a word that was said.

    While anti-9/11-conspiracists make good points, they make plenty of needless ad-hominem attacks as well (including on this page)

    Obviously there are going to be fanatics in every movement, including conspiracy skeptics.

    ——————
    # Wayward Son also wrote:
    “Plus the person with the video camera” (was harassing Shermer)

    I fail to see how simply filming a lecture could possibly be considered “harassment”. If that were the case then the Philadelphia Freethought Society would also be guilty, since they filmed the entire event.

  56. ref Says:

    Ask Aldo Marquis about the multitude of other eyewitnesses contradicting his findings, the recovered DNA evidence, how the plane debris got there, the FDR data, the radar records, and the fact that not a single person saw the plane fly OVER the Pentagon. It will get amusing.

    I have collected the history of some well known 9/11 conspiracy theories. It’s always good to know where they are coming from.

    http://911guide.googlepages.com/history

    As you will find out, most of these theories were first promoted only days or weeks after the attacks, by people with no expertise, with no proper investigating. You will see holocaust deniers as well as all-around conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones among those people.

    Six years later, these same theories are still alive. Sad but true.

  57. A.M. Buria Says:

    I was close by Ground zero on 9/11/01. I have looked at virtually every conspiracy web-site related to 9/11. Read all the books. Seen all the videos. All the “truther” materials. And I have also looked at every conspiracy debunking source. I have done this carefully and repeatedly over the past few years. I have compared data extensively. My life was changed, I wanted to know why.

    My conclusions? There is no “official conspiracy theory”. Merely an enormous amount of evidence that leads to the inescapable conclusion that 19 fundamentalist muslims masterminded by repeatedly self declared enemies of the West finally brought down the WTC after failing in ’93. Simply put, they’ll attack the West again if they get the opportunity.

    The anomalies? Well, so far as I have been able to determine, there aren’t all that many of them, and the claims “truthers” make turn out to be the result of logical fallacies, innumeracy, exaggerations, quotes taken out of context, edited video, and, yes, outright fabrications. Hey, when anyone claims to own the truth, a few lies for a good cause are no problem. The Holocaust denial analogy is not inappropriate.

    And that’s not even going near the fabulously insane theories that the “WTC was destroyed by particle weapons in outer space” of Dr. Judy Wood, or the somewhat more obscure claims made on some web sites that nuclear weapons were used to bring down the WTC. And there are others.

    In fact, there is no one narrative for what happened on 9/11 among “truthers”. The dirty little secret of their “movement” is that there are just as many claims that fellow “truthers” are wrong, or “disinformation agents” as there are accusations and claims against “the Government” and those who disagree with them. The “9/11truth movement” is a many-headed hydra just as likely to be snapping at itself as the rest of the world.

    Incidentally, in my opinion, the reason “inside jobbers” show up to get attention at public gatherings has more to do with their frustration at not being able to use the standard tools of Madison Avenue, including the modern technique of “viral” campaigning, to sell any version of “9/11truth” to the general public, than anything else.

    By their own poll numbers, belief that the Bush Administration did it (or MIHOP) extends to about 4.6% of the public.

    Obviously, Far fewer than believe in, say, UFO’s.

  58. BlackRain Says:

    It’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove.

  59. DC Says:

    I met with my Alderbaranian Controller yesterday (A reall grey), and he told me 9/11 was actually done by Xenu’s supporters hiding in the center court of the Pentagon, and breaking through the Pentagon’s wall was an attempt to release Xenu’s spirit. WTC was a diversion.

    Now I have to leave and sail off with Captain Hagbard into the sunset…

  60. b. j. edwards Says:

    I’ll point out that neither Aldo Marquis nor Craig Ranke was ever able to answer numerous questions in numerous forums concerning the contradictions, outright lies, made-up evidence, and other irrational claims they make both in writing and in their Grade B sci-fi flick, The PentaCon.

    For those who still believe that the 9/11 Truth Movement is anything BUT denial in action, Aldo Marquis and Craig Ranke and the PentaCon scam, demonstrate the full nature of the evil, immorality, sickness, and irrational nature of Denial in action.

    Of anyone in the 9/11 Denial Movement, Marquis and Ranke will be relegated to the trash bin of history with Holocaust Deniers.

  61. Citizen Deux Says:

    What do Bill Maher, Noam Chomsky and Michael Shermer have in common? They all openly refute the September 11th conspiracy theorists.

    Three more disparet souls could hardly be found.

  62. b. j. edwards Says:

    mark eyestone wrote:

    “The fact that all FAA protocol regarding crash investigation was disregarded is a huge red flag;…”

    That is a false statement.

    “…without a proper investigation of the physical evidence there is no way to verify (or disprove) the government line.

    False. There is no “government line.” There is only the evidence, massive evidence from thousands of different sources that converge on the inescapable conclusion of what happened on 9/11, and never refuted by anyone. Unless and until anyone can demonstrate otherwise, there is no rational way anyone in the world would ever consider wasting money on another investigation.

    “If it walks like a highly-engineered controlled demolition, and quacks like a highly-engineered controlled demolition…”

    That is one of the most fallacious arguments brought up by the 9/11 Denial Movement and repeatedly trashed.

    In order for anyone to make the claim that because it “looked” like a controlled demolition, therefore it “was”, one would have to present as evidence what an UNcontrolled demolition does NOT look like.

    It just goes to show that 9/11 conspiracy myths are perpetuated over time no matter how many times they are shown to be false. You need to pay attention to critical thinking, think for yourselves critically, and stop believing nonsense as if it were true.

  63. mark eyestone Says:

    I stand corrected…

    As a red-blooded American I truly believe that this nation was our manifest destiny, given to us by God himself. Evolution is a fallacy. How do I know that? Because my religious leaders tell say so, it’s witten in the Bible after all. What else do I believe? Hmmm, well, first we HAD to burn the witches and kill the savage indians becasue they were godless beasts; Vietnam was a necessary war and if we, Gods chosen, did not kill all them damn gooks over there we would all be commies now; Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, clearly…

    But seriously, I am amazed at how many people posting on a skeptics website have no tolerance for others simply asking questions. I’m not a raving conspiracist like Alex Jones or Art Bell and I’m not trying to say that there is a specific conspiracy, only that there are numerous discrepancies in the (yes, I’ll say it again) “official” story.

    So much evidence continues to be hidden from view…why? Why not release all of the public and private Pentagon surveilance footage instead of just a few frames? If we know a plane flew into the building (and I believe it did), why not show us the footage? What state secrets are going to be divulged in a 30-second video clip? Trust the government when they present their findings? There’s nothing rational about THAT course of action, look no further than the FDA and EPA processes for approving new drugs and chemicals…the research (sic) is done by the concerned industry and rubber-stamped by these poorly funded and understaffed agencies. “Here, take these pills, they’re perfectly safe. Of course we haven’t tested them in tandem with any of the other pills you’re taking and, well, we haven’t done any long-term studies…but it’s perfectly safe, trust us.”

    As for the Occam’s Razor arguement I ask: which is the simpler explanation for the manner in which all three WTC buildings went down at near free-fall speed into their own footprint–precise controlled demolition charges that have produced the same results consistantly for decades, or numerous failings in a highly-engineered piece of architecture that somehow came together simultaneously to initiate a near-symmetrical freefall even though the damage done to the buildings was not at all symmetrical?

    True, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence…the official explanation for the manner of collapse of the WTC buildings is quite extraordinary.

    But alas, there is no longer any evidence around to allow any of these questions to be sufficiently answered, one way or another. What we are apparently stuck with is the official story as it stands; and apparently we should have absolute faith in that story. That’s right, there’s no reason to be skeptical of what the government says is the truth. Period.

    Finally, I have to say that I am a bit dismayed at face presented by skeptics here. Many of the people posting on this thread have resorted to petty name-calling and implying that anyone asking these questions is either sick in the head or unbelievably stupid. Please, skeptics, try not to look like a bunch of raging assholes so quick to deride anyone who doesn’t believe exactly what you do…it makes you sound like a bunch of fundamentalist Christians railing against anyone who doesn’t believe the world was created just a few thousand years ago.

    Name-calling and dialogue are incompatible; how can you expect to change anyone’s grasp of factual reality through personal insults? State the facts, answer the questions, and if there’s something that you don’t know or can’t explain be honest and admit as much.

  64. b. j. edwards Says:

    mark eyestone wrote:

    “But seriously, I am amazed at how many people posting on a skeptics website have no tolerance for others simply asking questions.”

    You must be very new at this, Mark. There is no one to my knowledge that does not welcome others asking questions. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada,

    What is simply incomprehensible, Mark, insulting to human intelligence, to the scientific method, to logic and critical thinking, and to those who have gone to GREAT effort to address ALL of the questions and “doubts” ever raised about 9/11 is when those, including you, WILLFULLY REFUSE to listen to the answers given. We have heard your excuse endlessly for the last six years as you bring up the same debunked nonsense refuted repeatedly hundreds of times.

    So, my suggestion for you, Mark, is to get off your derriere and stop embarrassing yourself and LOOK UP the answers and do your own research. If you don’t believe it, refute it. When you and the 9/11 Denial Movement stop insulting our intelligence by claiming you’re “just asking questions.” When you stop insulting the massive effort that has documented 9/11, and the memories of those 3,000 innocent victims of 9/11, you will have EARNED respect. Until them, expect derision for hiding behind the canard of “just asking questions” when you should know better.

    Any questions?

  65. Greg Gerdes Says:

    In regards to Shermer, the holohoax and the deluding novel – Denying History, noboby exposes the fraud of all three better than – The National Association of Forensic Criminologists, Archeologists, Skeptics and Historians

    http://nafcash.com/

    Here is an excerpt from the site –

    “Michael Shermer accuses real skeptics of denying history because, in part, they refuse to share his delusional belief that the Germans were able to murder millions of Jews without leaving a trace. In his sophomoric and sophistic attempt to “prove” this accusation, he has denied forensic science, criminology and archeology. In accusing others of practicing pseudo history, he not only has engaged in it himself, but also had to forgo the scientific method and the very fundamental principles of skepticism which he claims guides his belief system. In his own words, again from Denying History: “The best way to beat a lie detector is to believe the lie yourself… Deception becomes self-deception.” Really? Well then, let’s use the alleged Treblinka holocaust as a case study in denial and self-deception. Here’s another montage of Michael Shermer quotes from Denying History: “The culmination of years of research… our purpose… to present the historical facts that refute Holocaust denial… To debunk the deniers can’t we just go there and see them for ourselves? The answer, of course, is “yes.”… We can no longer ignore the deniers, calling them names and hoping they will go away… We cannot remain silent anymore. It’s time to respond… Not only is it defensible to respond to the deniers, it is, we believe, our duty… Many of our arguments draw on specialized research into the claims of the deniers that took us… to the Nazi extermination camps themselves… we went to Europe to conduct research at the camps, in particular at… Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec… We wanted to see for ourselves just what evidence there is at the camps and to take the opportunity to examine firsthand the claims… Much of the research is the type of work professional historians normally do… analyzing ground and aerial photographs… in order to make proper interpretations, we must review the physical evidence… Like criminologists solving a crime, we piece together the myriad bits of evidence until a conclusion emerges from the morass of data… How is it that so much physical evidence can come to be doubted?”

    “Reviewing the physical evidence?” – “Analyzing ground and aerial photographs?” – “Like criminologists solving a crime?” Well now Michael, real skeptics and scholars have been waiting for years for you to publish the results of your alleged firsthand examination of the physical evidence and analysis of aerial photographs of Treblinka. If you’re so incredulous that people can come to doubt so much physical evidence and photographic proof, then why do you refuse to publish the results of your alleged research? If there’s so much physical evidence – then let’s see it! What’s wrong Shermer? Your silence is deafening. What happened to your duty to respond? (After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial – don’t you?)

    So why are the billion dollar per-year holocaust industry and its fawning front men at the “Skeptics” Society afraid to honestly apply the scientific method to the fairy tale known as the Treblinka holocaust? It really is this incredibly simple: The alleged Treblinka holocaust literally stands or falls on the existence of the alleged huge mass graves, and the nonsensical lies of Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor become untenable (as if they’re not already!) if the truth about Treblinka is exposed. Are you beginning to understand why the Jews have gotten holocaust denial (Jewish code name for THE TRUTH) to be a criminal offense in 15 countries of the world? And the “Skeptics” Society is aiding and abetting them in this immoral inquisition! And to add insult to injury, they’re prostituting themselves to the holocaust industry under the guise of skeptical inquiry and the scientific method! That explains why the alleged Treblinka holocaust had to be “proven” with the “science of history” instead of real science and tangible physical evidence. (The only other explanation for this craven refusal to apply the scientific method to scientifically knowable truths and forensically provable facts is that the logically retarded pseudo-skeptics at the Schleptics Society actually believe in magically disappearing Jews!) Of course, if all these charges are unfounded, then it begs the question: Why does Michael SHAMMER refuse to publish the findings of his alleged investigation which he claims he conducted at Treblinka? (Odd behavior for a “scientist” who claims he wants to put an end to holocaust denial – isn’t it?)”

    No graves = No Treblinka holocaust

  66. Pdog Says:

    There are many legitimate questions here on both sides of the argument. Remember that no one needs to prove 9/11 was or was not an “inside job” right now for there to be enough evidence to reopen the 9/11 investigation. And I think that most of the so-called “conspiracy theorists” or “9/11 Truthers” (terms used to marginalize or distract) want a real investigation and are not in this fight just to promote their own theories. If the government is not guilty then lets reopen 9/11 and have a real independent investigation. Examine all the evidence and let the chips fall where they may. Otherwise the conspiracy theories will continue to build.

  67. No_soap Says:

    nafcash.com, has anyone claimed the quarter of a million yet? Surely a holocaust-insister somewhere will leap at the chance to cash in: they certainly
    make a killing already, with no evidence at all.

  68. Joe Says:

    Why don’t those skeptical of 911 truthers and Holocaust claims go debate on another board. How many topics are workable on a single thread. Geeeeeesh.

  69. Greg Gerdes Says:

    “With no evidence at all” indeed. Here is an excerpt from the nafcash site – ( http://nafcash.com/ )

    “According to the orthodox version of the holocaust, at Treblinka the Germans murdered and buried, then dug up, burned and crushed the bones, and then – REBURIED all the crushed bone and ash of 870,000 Jews INTO THE SAME MASS GRAVES; thus, they allegedly – “obliterated all evidence of their crime.” If you’re unfamiliar with the controversies surrounding this “judicially proven fact,” then it’s imperative that before you begin reading this site, you understand the forensic argumentation presented in this link HERE:

    “This is the biggest cemetery of Polish Jewry… There are 870,000 Jews buried in the enormous ditches… Within this area initially, the Jews were buried in enormous pits… Later on, a sort of grill from railroad tracks was built. The corpses were removed and this area served for burning the corpses… Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka – all three of them were utterly eradicated… Both Treblinka and the other camps, once they had fulfilled their task of extermination, were obliterated… Nothing remains – nothing.”

    Nothing remains? Who in their right mind could believe that a perfect crime could be committed while murdering 870,000 people? Everyone knows that at every crime scene – EVIDENCE IS LEFT BEHIND: “Cremated remains weigh between three and nine pounds.” In order to believe the orthodox Treblinka holocaust legend, you must believe this: The Germans, by putting a layer of soil over millions of pounds of crushed bone and ash, tens of millions of teeth and tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings somehow, magically – “utterly eradicated” all evidence of their crime!

    Utterly eradicated? How about utter nonsense? Why would the Germans go through all that work, knowing full well there would still be millions of pounds of evidence left behind, then put all that incriminating evidence right back into the very graves that they allegedly had just dug all that evidence out of? It’s understandable when a toddler believes that he’s made himself invisible while playing peek-a-boo by covering his eyes, but how do you explain the insanity of the holocaust “scholars” who believe that a layer of soil can make millions of pounds of evidence magically disappear?

    To put this UTTERLY ILLOGICAL FRAUD in perspective, it’s like someone claiming that he could murder every single man, woman and child in Montana and magically not leave a single trace of his crime! So if Shermer and all the other officially sanctioned holocaust “scholars” can’t offer an iota of tangible physical evidence to back up their fraudulent claim that the alleged Treblinka holocaust has been scientifically proven – not even a single tooth out of an alleged 27 million! – then what’s left for the true believers to cling to in justifying their continued belief in the orthodox version of the Treblinka story? Why the perfect crime / magically disappearing Jew “theory” of course! It simply boggles the mind that it’s necessary to explain to college educated school teachers (just as you would to a three-year-old child), that by covering something up with dirt you’re not actually making it magically disappear.

    No graves = No Treblinka holocaust

  70. No_soap Says:

    nafcash.com, ummm, my reply wasn’t an endorsement of that site’s position, it was an ironic rebuke. But, thanks for being my new buddy! [lol]..Come on, if people were really “making a killing” with holocaust-reparations, why wouldn’t they just as easily be able to claim the quarter of a million on nafcash.com? Why would standards of proof be any less strict outside of the site? People aren’t trying to claim the money, because its not about just “making money”, it’s about reparations ; and since that site had nothing to do with the holocaust, why would anyone waste time on its “reward”?

  71. Greg Gerdes Says:

    Well little buddy, the nafcash site – http://nafcash.com/ – unequivocally exposes Michael Shermer as a liar, hypocrite and fraud, and the standards of proof are just 1 % of the alleged mass murder at Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor. And the standard of proof for BAbi Yar is just just 1 tenth of 1 %.

    If Shammer and his work on the holocaust have been exposed as fraudulent (which of course they have), then why should anyone believe his equally spurious work on 9 / 11?

    You are right about one thing little buddy, it’s not about the money, it’s about putting an end to “holocaust denial.” Here is an excerpt from the nafcash site –

    “Since Michael Shermer (the president of the “Skeptics” Society and publisher of “SKEPTIC” magazine) has such disdain for real skeptics (i.e. – intelligent / logical people who refuse to share his delusion that millions of Jews can magically vanish from the face of the earth without leaving a trace), “SKEPTIC” magazine should be more than willing to publish the results of any scientific investigation that claims to have proven that the largest of the asinine pure extermination center legends has been forensically proven to be a fact. Therefore, all one has to do to become a claimant for THE TREBLINKA CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION CHALLENGE TM reward is to have said claims / results published in “SKEPTIC” Magazine. Now, just how hard should it be for the “we-must-see-compelling-evidence-before-we-believe” sham “Skeptics” Society to prove just 1% of the alleged mass murder at Treblinka IF the official story is true?

    To all those who want to put an end to holocaust denial and who still believe that the deniers are crazy when they talk about Jewish conspiracies (But your belief in magically disappearing Jews is sane, right?), then why haven’t you accepted THE TREBLINKA CSI CHALLENGE TM? And why don’t you ASK MICHAEL SHERMER why, if he so desperately yearns to earn the title of Righteous Gentile, does he refuse to take advantage of the golden opportunity that NAFCASH TM is giving him to help stop holocaust denial? And while you’re challenging Shermer, why don’t you remind him of what he wrote in his deluding novel DENYING HISTORY: “We also traveled to the camps themselves, to… Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec… to test the claims that no mass murders… took place by intention at these camps.” Really? Did he conduct scientific tests using the real sciences of forensic criminology and archaeology? If not, why? And if so, then why does he refuse to publish the results? And why don’t you ask him how he rationalizes his cowardly refusal to debate true skeptics who expose his gross hypocrisy and illusory “testing of the claims” with this other quote from Denying History: “Others have argued that to meet with the deniers or answer their claims is to validate them, but we believe that to let their arguments go unanswered presents the greater danger.” So why does Michael Shermer refuse to answer NAFCASH’s TM questions and/or accept its challenges?

    If “the world’s foremost skeptic” (who insists his sophomoric CONVERGENCE OF EVIDENCE theory historically proves the holocaust), can’t scientifically locate even one of the alleged huge mass graves of Treblinka and can’t forensically prove even 1% of this absurd myth, then what does that say about the veracity of this so-called historically proven fact? Shermer’s sophistry is akin to a scientist claiming that he has proven the great flood / Noah’s Ark fable by using nothing but bible verses! What we’re challenging anyone to prove is undeniably a scientifically knowable truth and a forensically provable fact. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.”

    No graves = No Treblinka holocaust

  72. Greg Gerdes Says:

    b.j. edwards: Any questions?

    I have a question for you Mr. Edwards, about the 1993 WTC bombing – was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question –

    #1

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

    (Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)

    #2

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    *

    No graves = No Treblinka holocaust

  73. John Wagner Says:

    Greg Gerdes seems not only to be misinformed….but redundant!

    I have never understood the conspiracy quacks….but here
    is a thought.

    Maybe all the world terrorists are under the mind control of Bin Laden and they have figured out how to infect some of our citizens with some undisclosed substance that makes the “idiot gene” go wild and they will destroy all the Infidels by simply harassing them to death! And I bet the Government has secretly hired Michael Shermer and Bill Maher to fight this plague and doesn’t want us to know anything about it……its gotta be..and don’t you think and investigation is warranted? The problem is the only unbiased judgment to solve this complex problem would have to handled by the Space aliens nobody can find because the government is hiding all of them and they are too weak or dumb to escape the captivity of stupid mankind.

    So little time….and so many more important things to talk about!

    John

  74. Gern Blansten Says:

    http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

    Bin Laden says he wasn’t behind attacks
    September 17, 2001 Posted: 11:21 AM EDT (1521 GMT)

    DOHA, Qatar (CNN) — Islamic militant leader Osama bin Laden, the man the United States considers the prime suspect in last week’s terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, denied any role Sunday in the actions believed to have killed thousands.

    In a statement issued to the Arabic satellite channel Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, bin Laden said, “The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it.

    “I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons,” bin Laden’s statement said.

    “I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders’ rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations,” bin Laden said.

    CNN.COM SPECIAL REPORT

    CNN NewsPass Video

    Agencies reportedly got hijack tips in 1998

    MORE STORIES

    Intelligence intercept led to Buffalo suspects

    Report cites warnings before 9/11

    EXTRA INFORMATION

    Timeline: Who Knew What and When?

    Interactive: Terror Investigation

    Terror Warnings System

    Most wanted terrorists

    What looks suspicious?

    In-Depth: America Remembers

    In-Depth: Terror on Tape

    In-Depth: How prepared is your city?

    RESOURCES

    On the Scene: Barbara Starr: Al Qaeda hunt expands?

    On the Scene: Peter Bergen: Getting al Qaeda to talk

    Asked Sunday if he believed bin Laden’s denial, President Bush said, “No question he is the prime suspect. No question about that.”

    Since Tuesday’s terrorist attacks against the United States, Bush has repeatedly threatened to strike out against terrorism and any nation that supports or harbors its disciples.

    Bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi-born exile, has lived in Afghanistan for several years. U.S. officials blame him for earlier strikes on U.S. targets, including last year’s attack on the USS Cole in Yemen and the bombings of the U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 1998.

    Bin Laden’s campaign stems from the 1990 decision by Saudi Arabia to allow U.S. troops into the kingdom after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait — a military presence that has become permanent.

    In a 1997 CNN interview, bin Laden called the U.S. military presence an “occupation of the land of the holy places.”

    Immediately after the attacks that demolished the World Trade Center’s landmark twin towers and seriously damaged the Pentagon, officials of Afghanistan’s ruling Taliban said they doubted bin Laden could have been involved in carrying out the actions.

    The Taliban — the fundamentalist Islamic militia that seized power in Afghanistan in 1996 — denied his ties to terrorism and said they have taken away all his means of communication with the outside world.

    The repressive Taliban regime has received almost universal condemnation, particularly for their harsh treatment of women. Only three countries, including Pakistan, recognize them as the country’s rightful government.

    A high-level Pakistani delegation was set to travel to Afghanistan on Monday to urge Taliban supreme leader Mullah Mohammed Omar to hand over bin Laden, CNN learned Sunday.

    The Taliban, which controls more than 90 percent of the country, has threatened any neighboring country that allows its soil to be used to help the United States stage an attack on Afghanistan.

  75. Greg Gerdes Says:

    John Wagner:

    “Greg Gerdes seems not only to be misinformed…”

    Well John, since comedy certainly isn’t your thing, maybe education is. If I’m misinformed, then would you please inform me? Here is my question about the 1993 WTC bombing again – Was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question –

    #1

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

    (Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)

    #2

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    Just a simple yes or no will suffice. Can you handle this questin John? Or do I need to simplify it for you?

    And here’s another question for you John, a question Michael Shermer refuses to answer – How many “huge mass graves” are there at Treblinka?

    Two very simple questions for a very simple man. Now if you think I’m redundant John, then just answer the questions so I don’t have to ask them again, OK?

    John Wagner:

    “So little time… and so many more important things to talk about!”

    What could be more important than putting an end to holocaust denial? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial – don’t you John?

    No graves = No “pure extermination centers”

  76. Michael Fury Says:

    Mr. Shermer, why did you respond to the question about the passport found in the WTC rubble by claiming it is an “urban legend”? Are you one of those “conspiracy theorists” who doesn’t believe ABC News?

    http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/disinfo/deceptions/abc_nosurvivors.html

    “Investigators discovered the passport of Satam al Suqami, one of the terrorists aboard American Airlines Flight 11, the first plane to hit the World Trade Center.”

    http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/disinfo/deceptions/abc_hunt.html

    “ABCNEWS sources identify another hijacker as Satan Suqami, a Saudi national on American Airlines Flight 11, whose passport was recovered in the rubble.”

    That was easy. Do your homework beyond watching the Hearst propaganda doc. Your “fans” have.

  77. BreezyinVA Says:

    http://www.ae911truth.org/

    A whistle blower released the blue prints to WTC more than a year ago. Any explanations prior to that are fantasy.

    Mayer believes the official conspiracy which was never proven. Look for the bigger picture. Don’t be afraid.

  78. George Says:

    Follow the money.

    Sept 10, 2001, Donald Rumsfeld admits that the Pentagon can’t track over 2.3 trillion dollars.

    More money for the Pentagon, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends.

    “According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions,” Rumsfeld admitted.

    The next day, the Pentagon’s accounting dept is hit by something, and the fallout is that they decide not to have an audit for 2001.

    This is just one of many things accomplished by 9/11.

    The World Trade Center was an albatross in New York, filled with asbestos. The cost to make it safe and take out the asbestos was prohibitive. So, another problem solved when they are demolished.

    WTC7, implodes, who knows what SEC investigations were destroyed in that.

    The fake war on terrorism funds the military industrial complex, over close to a trillion dollars to the defense industry.

    This is all just outright theft, 8 years of Bush and the country is bankrupt, and we’ll be paying it off for years.

    It goes on and on, those in denial are those that can’t look at the hundred of problems with the official story and see it for what it is, a crock of shit.

    Does it really seem plausible that a country who spends more on it’s military than than the rest of the world combined, would leave it’s military headquarters defenseless? Of course there are defense systems on the Pentagon, they were just not used on 9/11. Ask yourself why not?

  79. Irate behaviorist Says:

    “paul fauvet Says:
    January 30th, 2008 at 5:37 am

    John P. Jones and other “truthers” conveniently forget that 9/11 was the second attack on the World Trade Centre. The first was the truck bomb of 1993, for which Al-Qaeda operative Ramzi Youssef is currently serving a life sentence.”

    What cognitively lazy individuals such as yourself don’t realize is that you’ve been conditioned to repeat what you’ve seen the most on TV and in the media. The 1993 WTC occurred because the FBI provided LIVE bomb material to an ex-egyptian informer, Edam Salem, for making the truck bomb. This informant recorded his discussions with his FBI handler because he didn’t trust them (wonder why?). He asked if he should swap the bomb material with something safe and his handlers told him not to. The audio of these tapes is online “google: Edam Salem mp3″ to hear it along with plenty of other details.

    “Steve Says:
    January 30th, 2008 at 6:03 am

    I’d really like to see a whole article on the human tendency to believe conspiracy theories. There seems to be a certain percentage of people who are just wired this way, such that it really doesn’t matter which conspiracy we’re talking about… they’re all true and they’re almost all related.”

    Here’s the scoop straight from a published author in the cognitive sciences- You, and every one like you, has been conditioned (brainwashed). You watch and read too much from one source, the main stream media. You ignore facts when they are presented because they overwhelm your emotions. This is called cognitive dissonance. And because you ignore the facts you continue to belief in that which is not real. But these “truthers” won’t go away with their damnable facts!! So they must be crazy! They must be…”conspiracy theorists”. Look up the individual definitions for that phrase and you will find nothing about crazy people. That is because the media has conditioned a new meaning for the phrase over the past several decades. “Oh but they couldn’t do that!!” Stop living in a fantasy world and WAKE UP!

    CLASSICAL CONDITIONING OF ATTITUDES AS A FUNCTION OF NUMBER OF PERSUASION TRIALS AND ARGUMENT (UCS) STRENGTH. WEISS, ROBERT F.; CHALUPA, LEO M.; GORMAN, BERNARD S.; Psychonomic Science, Vol 11(2), 1968. pp. 59-60.

  80. Sarah L. Says:

    While attending Michael Shermer’s book tour last night in Del Mar I was horrified by the ‘truthers’ and their obvious disregard for the dozens of people who were there to hear about ‘The Mind of the Market’. Their rude, self-serving behavior was incredibly annoying and even if they had something worth talking about this was not the time or place to do it. What a waste of everyone’s time who came out for a book tour! Who raised these inconsiderate people?

  81. Irate behaviorist Says:

    “b. j. edwards Says:
    January 31st, 2008 at 7:30 am

    False. There is no “government line.” There is only the evidence, massive evidence from thousands of different sources that converge on the inescapable conclusion of what happened on 9/11, and never refuted by anyone. Unless and until anyone can demonstrate otherwise, there is no rational way anyone in the world would ever consider wasting money on another investigation.”

    More money was spent on investigating Clintion’s penis and other women than 9/11. The evidence you claim exists is in a fantasy world. The modus operandi for 9/11 is laid out in Rebuilding America’s defenses, by the members of the Project for a New American century. All of those rodents have been engaged in constant lies and fabrications which are well documented all over the net and elsewhere. If you are truly ignorant of these FACTS then you need to WAKE UP and start reading. Don’t expect to have a firm grasp on reality when you are being spoon fed your information.

  82. b. j. edwards Says:

    Irate behaviorist Says:
    February 1st, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    Obviously, you never bothered to the PNAC reports:
    http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm
    but relied on what your Truther priests told you.

    “If you are truly ignorant of these FACTS then you need to WAKE UP and start reading.”

    I did years ago, bubba. Why haven’t YOU? You can start here: http://www.911myths.com/html/new_pearl_harbour.html

    By the way, are you one of these two guys from “We Are Idiots?: http://tinyurl.com/2hu6kx

    —–
    “They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.”

    – Thomas Brackett Reed

  83. Irate behaviorist Says:

    “b. j. edwards Says:
    February 1st, 2008 at 7:13 pm

    Obviously, you never bothered to the PNAC reports:
    http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm
    but relied on what your Truther priests told you.”

    Obviously I never bothered to… do what? I’ll assume you left out “read”. I read the miscellaneous PNAC papers over FOUR years ago. LOOONG before I even questioned 9/11. But once I started researching 9/11 it was abundantly clear what role the individuals in PNAC played.

    It’s funny that you would cite http://www.911myths.com/html/new_pearl_harbour.html as it is simply a REVIEW/INTERPRETATION of the PNAC literature. I can make my own interpretations thank you. Besides that site doesn’t include other information such as quotes from Zbigniew Bzrezinki or Kissinger. You can turn to ad hominem attacks all you want it still doesn’t refute the evidence.
    You also can’t cover up the works that have been written and published by Bzrezinki and Rockefellar among others.

    2.3 trillion dollars reported missing on 9/10/2001 and no investigation… 9/11 couldn’t possibly have been used to divert attention. No psychological warfare going on here…naaaah

  84. Michael Fury Says:

    You’re right, Mr. Shermer, all demolitions are bottom-up. End of discussion.

    …and these look nothing like 9/11:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ1E2NPl-s8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d77E0E46c2k&feature=related

  85. Bill McLean Says:

    I find it amazing that people would beleive that your (I’m Canadian) gov would murder their own citizens as well as those of their own allies which, if discovered could result in 1) war across the LONGEST undefended border in the world
    2) shutting off of your MOST SECURE source of natural resources to conduct the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which is supposedly the whole purpose behind 9/11
    3) would make protecting American soil from infiltration nearly impossible as most of the Canadian population could, with relative ease pass as U.S. residents.
    Do these people really think that a gov that could pull off said act wouldn’t also be smart enough to consider those risks as well? I really don’t think that the industrialists who supposedly control the white house would jepradize Exxon’s 40 billion in profits, by declaring war on their most secure revenue source,US NORTH OF THE BORDER, although if your education system is still the same as it was in the late 70’s when large numbers of americans came to northern Alberta with bechtel and were not sure if they were going to have to trade cars for dog sleds perhaps the ignorance is understandable if not excusable.

  86. b. j. edwards Says:

    Obviously, Bill McLean is spreading disinfo.

    See: http://www.revisionism.nl/Sept11/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm

    ;-)

  87. Bill McLean Says:

    To b.j. edwards

    question has the White House ever been Razed to the ground by a foreign invader??
    As a Canuck I tend to find it amusing, aside from the loss of lfe, that your view point is so nationegoistic that NO ONE CAN ATTACK AMERICAN SOIL SO IT MUST HAVE BEEN THE GOV. Grow up, illegal aliens(earthbound type) cross your borders on a regular basis so the premise that it couldn’t be outsiders sad and humorous at the same time. As we (canucks) are currently in Afghanistan fighting with and for american forces as a direct result of 9/11 and not in Iraq is a result of our disbelief in the evidence your gov presented as proof that Saddam was connected to 9/11. As to the charge of disinfo, I can list your levels of gov. Can you do the same without having to do research?

  88. Greg Gerdes Says:

    b.j. edwards: Any questions?

    I have a question for you Mr. Edwards, about the 1993 WTC bombing – was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question –

    #1

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

    (Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)

    #2

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    *

    Why don’t you answer my question bj? How about my little buddy nosoap or John Wagner? And what about you paul fauvet, you seem to think you’re an expert on the 1993 WTC bombing. Is the question too hard for all you “skeptic” society bigbrains?

    No graves = No Treblinka holocaust

  89. Greg Gerdes Says:

    Sarah L. Says:

    “While attending Michael Shermer’s book tour last night in Del Mar I was horrified by the ‘truthers’ and their obvious disregard for the dozens of people who were there to hear about ‘The Mind of the Market’. Their rude, self-serving behavior was incredibly annoying and even if they had something worth talking about this was not the time or place to do it. What a waste of everyone’s time who came out for a book tour! Who raised these inconsiderate people?”

    If Shammer and/or his sychophant followers don’t like people from the 9 /11 and/or the holocaust truth movements asking him questions, then he should just answer the questions honestly once and for all. I have been trying to get him to answer simple questions about the holocaust for years, and he not only refuses to anwer them but he refuses to publish the results of his bogus holocaust research as well. If you would like to see for yourself what a fruad he is, go to – http://nafcash.com/

    Shammer is a liar, a gross hypocrite, a coward and a fraud.

    *

    There was no Treblinka holocaust and the “pure extermination centers” were nothing but the WMD’s of WW II.

  90. MarkM Says:

    To those who believe Richard Krege’s ground radar data refutes Treblinka, please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Krege. Krege won’t release his data, and may not have even been there long enough to find anything. Plus, he ignores a grave site visible from an airplane!

    When Shermer won’t publish his data, conspiracy believers snap at his heels. So why the double standard?

    Many years ago, I lived next to Auschwitz survivors and saw their serial number tattoos. They were there, and Krege and his believers were not. Case closed.

  91. MarkM Says:

    Let’s go over melting in simple terms, because this melting business seems to be the foundation of the conspiracy believers argument:

    “Such as the fact that steel melts at a temperature of 2,777 degrees Fahrenheit, but jet fuel burns at only 1,517 degrees Fahrenheit. No melted steel, no collapsed towers.”

    Have you not heard of blacksmiths? They heat the metal until it is soft, then hammer the softer metal into the shape they want. No melting involved. So, in the WTC, you’e got soft (hot but unmelted) metal supporting tons and tons of weight. Instead of a blacksmith’s hammer, you’ve got immense weight bearing down, so the building’s supports bend. Now you’ve got the top part of a building moving downward. A little math will show that the impact on the lower floor is more than any force the building’s engineers ever expected, so you get the cascading collapse as shown in the WTC videos.

    Details on blacksmiths are at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmith. Notice how the blacksmiths pick a temperature well below melting.

    Boat builders use heat to bend wood, and they certainly don’t melt the wood. Blacksmithing and boat building are technologies that have been around a long time, so this is hardly new information.

    Hey kids! Try this experiment at your next science fair. Build a building-like structure out of paraffin sticks (available at canning supply stores). Put some weight on your building. Then apply a hair dryer. Watch the building collapse, without any melted wax. Go on TV as the person who debunked the 9/11 conspiracists. For bonus points, mention you hang out at http://www.michaelshermer.com.

  92. Pdog Says:

    Hello MarkM,

    I think you forgot to include this info:

    Twin Towers designed to take the load of fully loaded Boeing 707:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6H4GaNhTfA

    And you probably hadn’t heard about the explosion in the basement of the world trade center BEFORE the plane impacted above:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6444792740408511750&q=william+rodriguez+explosion&total=15&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

    But you won’t hear that point mentioned by people trying to defend the official 9/11 conspiracy theory (the one told to us by the media and government).

    Do you think the 2 most poplular internet documentaries EVER are popular because they are about a rediculous “conspiracy theory” or because they might actually have something legitimate to say?

    Loose Change
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3719259008768610598&q=loose+change+final+cut&total=313&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

    Zeitgeist
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331&hl=en

  93. X 0 Says:

    It doesn’t matter now to most of us whether or not Marinus van der Lubbe set the Reichstag fire 75 years ago this 27 February: what matters was the Decree for the Protection of People and State that followed. The same holds true, in the big picture, regarding what the administration made of the attacks on the twin towers, and the ramifications of the USA PATRIOT Act and other legal assaults on civil liberties in the United States.

  94. Goldenmean Says:

    I think some of the most compelling evidence shown in Loose Change is that other buildings, similar to the WTC, withstood much longer fires, with no collapse.

    Maybe if they made the volume of the magazine, or at least the relevant articles, free, more people would read them. I haven’t read them, but the evidence I’ve seen that the planes were not the sole cause of collapse is quite compelling. One could say I’m skeptical of the claims in Skeptic magazine, but I would be willing to read them. (But perhaps not pay for them. I’m a graduate student, after all.)

    Perhaps the Truthers’ main problem is the speculation and attribution of who did it. If they just presented the facts as they are, people would see it doesn’t all add up. But as it stands now, they undermine their own position because it allows people like Shermer to write them off and make it look like he (Shermer) is rational.

    The belief that anomalies do not provide adequate reason to doubt theories is completely unscientific. If you have a number of things that don’t fit your theory, it means your theory is wrong or incomplete. By Shermer’s “fallacy” (as stated in his Scientific American article), then we didn’t have adequate cause to question the Newtonian model of physics after anomalies presented by things like light bending around stars and wave-particle duality data.

  95. MarkM Says:

    Pdog, you need better evidence.

    Your own words state “take the load of a fully loaded Boeing 707″. The Towers DID take the load. Hours later they failed because it WASN’T the impact that brought the Towers down – it was the fire melting the building structure.

    Then, you bring out a janitor who can diagnose building explosions by sound. I wonder how many buildings he has been in that had explosions. Probably none. But in the very first explosion he has ever been in, he knows for a fact that there was one in the basement before the plane impact. Haven’t you ever heard of echoes? Depending on where you are at the moment, an echo can fool your ears and make you think the sound source is anywhere other than its real location.

    And, regarding the basement explosion. Where are the videos showing billowing clouds of dust? Where is the other evidence? Are you saying that the government has invented a way to make a big explosion that only a janitor can hear?

  96. Domo Says:

    These 9-11 non-truthers, I am beginning to suspect, simply enjoy putting over an obviously ludicrous official theory for the sheer delight of getting one to swallow their non-sense. The non-truthers have no facts, and so they continually resort to attacking the messengers, as nuts, wackos, etc., etc., etc. I think the non-truthers are afraid of the truth, afraid of the unbearable burden it carries. The non-truthers actions are a beautiful example of “Never unestimate the power of denial”, spoken by the drug dealing son in “American Beauty”. Despite plain evidence, the father does not want to believe his son is a drug dealer, so maintains what is essentially his own belief in his son’s purity by explaining away or refusing to look at facts right in front of his eyes. Instead its the queers down the street that are to blame!

  97. Bill McLean Says:

    mr Edwards my apologies my security blocked the emote. You’re right we are coming

  98. MarkM Says:

    Domo,

    I don’t argue my case for sheer delight, or from a sense of denial. I argue it because the facts support my side. Sure, when I first heard Loose Change I started having doubts. So, I did what any skeptic would do. I started reexamining the arguments of BOTH sides. As I learned more about ductility of metal, various transcripts, etc., the facts just did not support Loose Change. Instead, they supported the real truth.

  99. TM Akashi Says:

    paul fauvet Says:
    “But most of the supposed anomalies (such as the collapse of WTC7) have by now been investigated and plausible explanations proposed.”

    Does mr. fauvet mean plausible like intelligent design is plausible but without merit?

    The collapse of WTC7 is not even addressed in the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States (ie 9/11 commission). It was not addressed because they could not explain how a 47 story steel structure went down, just like a controlled demolition, when all that happened to WTC7 was a chunk of steel, which fell off of WTC1, bounced off of WTC6 then hit the side of WTC7 causing a gash and some fires. Verify it yourself. The 9/11 commission report does not even mention WTC7 (7 WTC) going down. If that 47-story fact got left out, do you think that qualifies as a conspiracy to hide the facts/truth. And Mr. Shermer should be well aware that even the name of the commission (NCOTAUTUS) influences the viewpoint/bias of the members.

    No way would that chunk of steel hitting one side of WTC7 cause the whole building (that’s all 4 corners and 4 sides) to collapse like a controlled demolition. This statement is supported by hundreds of architects and engineers that want the truth about WTC7. http://www.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php

    mr. fauvet also writes: “Among the obvious problems with the conspiracy theory is that it would have required dozens, if not hundreds, of government officials to keep absolutely quiet about what had really happened. And US political culture is not like that. Washington leaks.”

    I too wondered who had the people and motive to place those demolitions, without the fear of a leak. I had to rule out anyone in our government because of the danger of a leak. I heard someone suggest Mossad as the likely candidate. Everyone would agree that they have the knowledge and ability. They had the opportunity when all security systems were shut down two weeks prior to 9/11, when “security” upgrades were being performed. Their motive was not an attack on the U.S., because Israel is our friend. Their motive was to do a favor for a friend, as Cheney-Rumsfeld all wanted a “Pearl Harbor-like event”. Silverstein got his $billion insurance payment, Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld would get $trillions in Iraqi oil, and Israel would get $billions in aid and an increased U.S. presence in the middle east. It was a win-win-win, Israel would only be doing us a favor, and no one in Mossad would ever consider leaking information, as that would be extremely bad for Israel. All Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld had to do was to leave a few doors open, and that is what they did. Afterwards, they had to make sure that any incriminating evidence was removed, and they did that quite well also.

    Explosives were placed in WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7. The first two towers, because Cheney-Rumsfeld needed their “pearl harbor” event. WTC7 was included because it held the FBI records for the 2000 Western States Energy crisis that was manipulated by Enron and other energy corporations. Because FERC allowed the price increases, the federal government was liable for about $30 billion in paybacks to western states. When WTC7 went down, so did the records, requiring western states to settle for pennies on the dollar. That would be another win for the federal government. IMO, the biggest flaw to their plan was WTC7. Nobody with knowledge about steel construction believes that a gash on one side of WTC7 could bring down WTC7 like a controlled demolition. Hundreds of architects and engineers don’t think so. The catch is, nobody in power wants to investigate that hot-potatoe and they want the myth to continue. Just like mr. fauvet, they see every year that passes as solidifying the mythology. Here’s a quote from a very perceptive criminal, “The broad mass of a nation are always more easily corrupted by the big lie than the small lie. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation.” (Hitler, 1925)

    As they say, “You can fool some of the people, some of the times.” The people who know that 9/11 was an inside job, just choose not to be fooled. Also, I think it fair to say that they would like the criminals (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the rest) to be punished. Even Mr. Shermer should recognize that hundreds of architects and engineers know more about steel construction than he does.

  100. ref Says:

    TM Akashi wrote: “Even Mr. Shermer should recognize that hundreds of architects and engineers know more about steel construction than he does.”

    Really? Founder of ae911truth, Richard Gage, does not even know the difference between a static load and a dynamic load. He is in this game for money and fame.

    – Gage has never designed high-rises.
    – Admits demolition is clearly outside the scope of his expertise
    – Has a desperate call on his newsletter for structural engineers to sign his petition, currently he has no true SE’s, most members are equivalent to landscape architects or similar
    – Has made no original claims or calculations, and written no articles
    – Copies the works of Griffin, Hoffman and Jones (who are also no experts of demolition)
    – Has not even put together his own slide presentation
    – Doesn’t know the basics of engineering
    – Asks for huge amounts of money (desperately wants donations up to $911/month, that’s $10932/year folks)

    For more info, go to http://911guide.googlepages.com/ae911truth
    or
    http://www.ae911truth.info

  101. b. j. edwards Says:

    Once can never underestimate the intelligence of the 9/11 Truth Movement. Here’s one reason why:

    “Winston Churchill didn’t really exist, say teens”

    By Aislinn Simpson
    Last Updated: 1:53am GMT 04/02/2008

    “A fifth of British teenagers believe Sir Winston Churchill was a fictional character, while many think Sherlock Holmes, King Arthur and Eleanor Rigby were real, a survey shows.

    “The canvass of 3,000 under-twenties uncovered an extraordinary paucity of basic historical knowledge that older generations take for granted.

    “Despite his celebrated military reputation, 47 per cent of respondents dismissed the 12th-century crusading English king Richard the Lionheart as fictional.

    “More than a quarter (27 per cent) thought Florence Nightingale, the pioneering nurse who coaxed injured soldiers back to health in the Crimean War, was a mythical figure.”

    Read the whole thing:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/04/nhistory104.xml

    In contrast, a series of fictitious characters that have featured in British films and literature over the past few centuries were awarded real-life status.

  102. Greg Gerdes Says:

    Please notice the 9/11 true believers continued and craven refusal to answer any and all questions reguarding the 1993 WTC bombing that, at the very least, was allowed to happen by the FBi and other government agencies. Even when directly challenged, the 9/11 falsifiers hide from this questtion –

    Was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question –

    #1

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

    (Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)

    #2

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    **

    The fact is, they can’t answer the question because it would pull the rug out from under thier delusional fantasy that the government had no prior knowledge of the 2001 WTC bombings.

    Michael Shermer and all his sychophant wannabe “skeptics,” are liars, gross hypocrites, cowards and frauds. If anyone of you 9/11 falsifiers thinks this is too harsh, then answer the question.

    *

    There was no Treblinka holocaust

  103. Greg Gerdes Says:

    MarkM Says:

    “To those who believe Richard Krege’s ground radar data refutes Treblinka..”

    Krege’s forensic investigation of Treblinka is but one of many, many reasons for not believing the official Treblinka holocaust fable. Did you forget about the Polish-Jewish commissions investigation in the fall of 1945? Here is an excerpt from the nafcash site http://nafcash.com/

    “During November of 1945, in preparation for the Nuremberg (International Military Tribunal) trial, the Polish magistrate of the district court in Siedlce ordered an exploration of the former Treblinka II camp based on eyewitness testimony of the atrocities allegedly committed there. The Polish commission disbelieved the survivors’ tales and the enormous 3,500,000 victim count… Consequently, it attempted in earnest to unearth physical proofs of the Nazi crimes. The forensic exploration and excavation were started in November of 1945… Their sole purpose was to point to the locations of the unforgettable installations which allegedly they had had a chance to observe daily for about a year… the Lazaret… and… the gigantic mass graves… The location of the Lazaret pit was quickly found. Survivors alleged that 50,000 people were executed by shooting in this pit… the thorough forensic exploration… failed to discover any residue of human bones, any of the 50,000 (at least) reputed execution bullets, or any of the 50,000 spent cartridges… It is strange that only two years after the supposed events of the alleged extermination, the four survivors were unable to recall the location of these “gigantic [burial] pits.”

    If Michael Shermer is unbiased, then why did he intentionally try to suppress the fact that there have been forensic investigations conducted at Treblinka that refute the official story? And why did he fail to mention the fact that the original death toll at Treblinka was claimed to be 3.5 million? Or that the original story was the Jews were not murdered in diesel gas chambers as is now alleged, but rather, murdered in “steam chambers?” (Which was backed up with numerous “eyewitness testimonies” no less!)”

    Of course the main reason for not believing the orthodox Treblinka holocuast legend is this –

    If it couldn’t have happened – as alleged, then it didn’t happen – as alleged. (Just what part of physically impossible do you not understand?)

    NO GRAVES = NO HOLOCAUST WITHIN THE HOLOCAUST

  104. Greg Gerdes Says:

    MarkM Says:

    …”and [Krege] may not have even been there long enough to find anything. Plus, he ignores a grave site visible from an airplane!”

    So how long was Shermer at Treblinka Mark? And where can we find so much as a photo of Shermer that proves he was actually in the camp? And could you please tell us more about this alleged gravesite that you claim is visible from an airplane? Please give us a link where we can see this for ourselves. (Your not just lying about this like all the 9/11 falsifiers do on this site, are you Mark?)

    MarkM:

    “When Shermer won’t publish his data, conspiracy believers snap at his heels.”

    So you admitt that Shermer refuses to publishes his data about his alleged research at Treblinka? Thats a good start Mark. Now you have to ask yourself – WHY? And if you think those who are skeptical of the official Treblinka fable are “conspiracy believers,” then why are you unable and/or unwilling to accept the nafcash challenges? How hard could it be to locate the alleged largest mass grave(s) in the history of mankind in the SE third of a 22 acre field?

    MarkM:

    “Many years ago, I lived next to Auschwitz survivors and saw their serial number tattoos. They were there, and Krege and his believers were not.”

    So what you’re saying Mark is this – because some Auschwitz survivors had tattoos, that proves that there are 870,000 jews buried in “huge mass graves” at Treblinka? Do you really call yourself a skeptic? LOL!!!

    MarkM:

    “Case closed.”

    Really Mark? You seem to have forgotten one little detail. You forgot to show us where the “huge mass graves” of Treblina are. Please correct this little oversight, will you Mark? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial, don’t you Mark?

    *

    Treblinka and the “pure extermination centers” are to the official lies of the holocaust what the 1993 WTC bombing and WTC building #7 are to the official lies of 9/11

    *

    There was no Treblinka holocaust

  105. TM Akashi Says:

    If ref would calm down, he would notice that I wrote “architects and engineers know more about steel construction than he does.” I made no reference to Mr. Gage, who ref went on to say is not even an engineer.

    As I previously wrote “a chunk of steel, which fell off of WTC1, bounced off of WTC6 then hit the side of WTC7 causing a gash and some fires.” Upon further investigation, it turns out to be two chunks of steel hit WTC7 in two different locations. The Phil Mole article uses a quote from a firefighter who said that there was a 20 story hole in the south side of WTC7 as a reason for the collapse. It seems rather careless of Mr. Mole to have left out this exert from the FEMA report on WTC7:
    Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue. [Ch. 5, p. 31.]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center

    To clarify, the FEMA report is saying that damage to WTC7 by falling debris was not sufficient to cause structural weakness. This is clearly evident when the 40-story Bankers Trust building which was very close to WTC2, received severe damage across 16 floors of its north side, yet remained structurally sound. Gashes to the sides of steel buildings do not make them totally collapse. FEMA suggests fires on the 5th to 7th floors, because that is only plausible explanation IF you rule out controlled demolition. They fail to explain how a fire, which produced so much smoke (indicating incomplete combustion), could also produce enough heat to weaken the steel structure. BTW, we are talking about inch thick steel I-beams that are specifically engineered to hold up a 47-story building.

    It is a common psychological technique to control what people think by controlling the focus of discussion. If saying that controlled demolitions brought down WTC7 makes you a “conspiracy theorist”, then anyone who wants to hold on to their jobs will not seriously discuss it. Labeling people as “conspiracy theorists” is similar to labeling people “anarchists” or “communists” or “unpatriotic”. In fact, HR 1955 tries to label “conspiracy theorists” as terrorists who can be arrested and prosecuted. How’s that for trying to stop any further investigations into 9/11 inconsistencies? FEMA’s own report says that we need further research and investigation, yet when citizens try to make that happen, they are called names like “conspiracy theorists” and laws are produced to try to shut them up. In our 1984 Orwellian world, even the term “truther” is being used to mean “untruth”. During the Vietnam War, “peace-nik” was used in the same way.

    If there was a presentation with all of the known facts about WTC7 given to 100 impartial civil engineers, and they were allowed to choose which they thought brought down WTC7 (falling debris, fires, or controlled demolition), I wonder which they would choose? From what I know about science and steel construction, WTC7 could not have received enough damage from falling debris or fires to go down like a controlled demolition. Because WTC7 went down like a controlled demolition, I am inclined to believe that it was a controlled demolition. I have already proposed reasonable means, motive, suspects and opportunity. Anyone who discounts the notion of an inside job must not realize the incentive to commit a crime when the reward is $billions/trillions. Anyone who voted for Bush must not realize that subconsciously they will try to protect their self-image by discounting all serious criticism of his administration. Knowing that Bush’s domestic and foreign policies are a disaster is bad enough. Finding out that 9/11 was an inside job is unthinkable (verboten).

    In conclusion, the FEMA report calls for further research and investigation. That is what the “truthers” are calling for. Truthers just want controlled demolition to be included in the discussion. Unless they make a lot of noise, the government won’t allow that to happen. It took civil disobedience to help stop the Vietnam war, which explains why truthers non-violently demonstrate. Unfortunately, the American public cares more about the superbowl than they care to know the truth about 9/11. We already are well aware that the American public is happy with their myths.

  106. TM Akashi Says:

    As this topic is “9/11 “Truthers” Harass Shermer on Book Tour”, why is there so much discussion about the holocaust?

    Although it was probably unintentional by Mr. Shermer, throwing 9/11 conspiracy theorists in with holocaust deniers is getting many off topic.

    So, unless your intent is behave ignorantly, please take the holocaust discussion somewhere else.

  107. TM Akashi Says:

    Sorry about using the word “ignorantly”.
    I use that more now, because of this quote:
    “When you ignore reality, we all become ignorant.”

    I should have written, “unless you wish to behave in a less-than intelligent manner, please take the holocaust discussion to a more appropriate location.”

  108. TM Akashi Says:

    ref… I just read that Mr. Gage is an AIA architect. I stand by my statement “architects and engineers know more about steel construction than he does.” Even an architect of a multi-story home knows that a car crashing into one side will not bring the whole house down. Any architect who looks at a steel building being constructed understands that it is being built in an extremely structurally strong manner following well established codes.

    Your posting seems to attack the messenger (mr. gage), instead of addressing the message (the unexplained fall of WTC7). That is a common way to make points, while not addressing the message.

  109. Greg Gerdes Says:

    TM Akashi “ignorantly” Says:

    “As this topic is “9/11 “Truthers” Harass Shermer on Book Tour”, why is there so much discussion about the holocaust? Although it was probably unintentional by Mr. Shermer, throwing 9/11 conspiracy theorists in with holocaust deniers is getting many off topic. So, unless your intent is behave ignorantly, please take the holocaust discussion somewhere else.”

    To which I intelligently reply:

    Why don’t you read the whole of Shermers whining drivel, rather than just the headline? Here is the relevent part:

    “In the early 1990s I launched a full-scale investigation of the Holocaust deniers, initially as the cover story for Skeptic magazine and subsequently expanded into a book length treatment, Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say it? The deniers employ this tactic of anomalies-as-proof to great effect. David Irving, for example, claims that there are no holes in the roof of the gas chamber at Krema 2 at Auschwitz-Birkenau. So what? So plenty, he says. No holes in the roof of the gas chamber at Krema 2 means that the eyewitness account of SS guards climbing up on the roof and pouring Zyklon-B gas pellets through the holes and into the gas chamber below where the prisoners were herded into, means that the eyewitness account is wrong, which means that no one was gassed in Krema 2, which means that no one was gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau, which means that no one was gassed at any prison camp, which means that no Jews anywhere were systematically exterminated by the Nazis. In short, “no holes, no Holocaust,” says David Irving, a slogan emblazoned on t-shits of his supporters at his London trial in which he sued a historian for calling him a Holocaust denier.

    No holes, no Holocaust. No melted steel, no Al-Qaeda attack. The parallels are equal, and equally flawed. And just as I never imagined that Holocaust denial would wend its way into the mainstream press (Irving’s trial was front page news for months), after my above conversation with the filmmaker I never imagined that 9/11 denial would get media legs. But now it has legs for days, and so we have been forced to provide a public response.”

    Please note that Akashi cowardly refused to answer my questions also. Of course, as Shermer has proven over and over again, lack of courage is a hallmark of schleptic society “skeptics.”

    I will make a deal with you Akashi. If you can show us were the “huge mass graves” of Treblinka are (you know, the “huge mass graves” that allegedly contain the remains of 870,000 jews – the alleged largest mass grave site in the history of mankind – allegedly located in the SE third of a 22 acre field), I will stop embarassing all you false skeptics with my easy questions that not one skeptic has had the courage and/or integrity to answer and take the holocuast discussion elsewhere.

    Is it a deal Akashi? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial – don’t you?

    *
    No graves = No Treblinka holocuast

    There was no Treblinka holocaust and the “pure extermination centers” were simply the WMD’s of WWII.

    At the very least, 1/3 of the holocaust didn’t happen.

    *

    BTW Akashi, what is 6 million – 2.5 million?

  110. Greg Gerdes Says:

    And while you’re in the mood for answering questions Akashi, let’s see if you can answer this one (After all, you did want to discuss the WTC bombings – didn’t you?) –

    Was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question –

    #1

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

    (Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)

    #2

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    *

    What’s wrong Akashi, cat got your tounge?

    *

    There was no Treblinka holocaust

  111. Greg Gerdes Says:

    One More Question for the “skeptics”

    I just came accross the following on the CODOH site

    (Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust) –

    http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=4804

    and I would like to challenge Shermer and all the other false “skeptics” society members to answer as well.

    *

    Bradley R. Smith
    PO Box 439016
    San Ysidro CA 92143
    Desk: 209 682 5327
    Cell: 619 203 3151
    Email: bradley1930@yahoo.com
    Web: http://www.codoh.com

    04 February 2009

    Prof. Deborah Lipstadt
    Professor of Modern Jewish History and Holocaust Studies
    Emory University
    Atlanta, Georgia

    Dear Professor Lipstadt:

    Can you provide, with proof, the identity of one person killed in a German gas chamber at Auschwitz?

    Thank you.

    Bradley R. Smith

    End

    *

    A NOTE TO THOSE TO WHOM I HAVE COPIED THIS LETTER

    The above is the exact text of the 18-word question that I have put to Professor Lipstadt. We were told for four decades that four millions were killed at Auschwitz in gas chambers. Today we are told that about one million were killed there in gas chambers. I am asking for the identity, with proof, of one (one) person killed in a German gas chamber at Auschwitz.

    I am perfectly aware that in America there is a taboo against asking this question, or any question like it. I understand that in much of Europe, and in Israel, asking such a question can very well cause you to be prosecuted and imprisoned for “thought crimes.” Whether you are an academic, a journalist, or an interested third party, I should think that you would agree that my question to Professor Lipstadt suggests an irony that for Americans is, or should be, too obvious to need explanation.

    Bradley R. Smith

    *

    Now that shouldn’t be too hard to answer, IF there was a Auschwitz holocaust, should it bigbrains? (6 – 3 = 6 ???)

    *

    There was no Treblinka holocaust

  112. paul fauvet Says:

    Aren’t the various 9/11 “truthers” who have contributed to this thread just a little embarrassed that their positions are so enthusiastically defended by outright holocaust denier Greg Gerdes?

    Or is the connection between the “9/11 truth movement” and holocaust denial even more intimate than Michael Shermer imagined ?

    Gerdes is not clear about what he imagines Treblinka was, if not an extermination camp. If it was just a “transit camp” as the holocaust denial organisation, the Institute for Historical Review, claims, then why did the prisoners rise up in a doomed revolt in 1943 ?

    Fighting against heavily armed German guards makes little sense in a transit camp where the prisoners believed they were going to survive. But it is perfectly logical for people who know they are about to die to decide to go down fighting – and we should bow our heads before such heroic examples of anti-Nazi resistance (which in this case had the effect of closing down Treblinka).

    TM Akashi accepts my argument that American officials couldn’t have planted explosives to bring down the WTC towers for fear that there would be a leak and they would be caught. He gets round this problem by the even more fantastic suggestion that the job was somehow sub-contracted to Mossad.

    This sounds suspiciously like a variation on the explanation, common in parts of the Arab world, that “the Jews did it”.

    Of course, the idea that an Israeli state agency was involved is absurd. Even if we assume that all Mossad operatives are moral monsters, who wouldn’t blink an eyelid at killing thousands of citizens of their firmest ally, we have to ask – what would have happened if one of them had been caught ? If an Israeli agent had been apprehended placing explosives in the WTC, what would that have done to US-Israel relations?

    Whatever one may think of the Israeli government, it is certainly not suicidal, and is not going to risk the support it enjoys in the United States which is so crucial to Israel’s survival.

    Among the other objections to the controlled demolition thesis is that it would take days, if not weeks, for operatives to plant vast amounts of explosive in the two towers in the right places to bring them down. And nobody noticed them ? Not a single cleaner, security guard, or other worker at the WTC saw unknown people sneaking around the building with bulky packages ?

    Finally, if the plot was to bring down the towers in a controlled demolition, then why hijack the four aircraft at all ?

  113. ref Says:

    To TM Akashi: What are you talking about? You linked to ae911truth.org petition. That is Gage’s petition. That is Gage’s site. So I sure can talk about Gage, can’t I. And yes, Gage is an AIA architect. An AIA architect who is terribly wrong. I have addressed his arguments (actually not his arguments’ he copies the arguments from other) millions of times. I have linked to the demolition debunkings in the very same post that discusses Mr. Gage and his money making methods.

    Hundreds of architects and engineers surely know about the collapses. Just not those who have singned the Gage petition (as I said, landscape architects etc.)

    Take a look at this page:
    http://www.secertboard.org/Docs/Listing_by_State_12-07.pdf

    Over there are listed well over 1000 certified structural engineers, certified by the Structural Engineering Certification Board (SECB) of The National Council of Structural Engineers Association. And that is just certified structural engineers in United States, Puerto Rico & Virgin Islands, certified in 2005 or later. Consider, how many thousands of more of structural engineers there are worldwide. And how many of these over 1000 certified structural engineers question the events of 9/11 or have signed Mr. Gage’s petition? You guessed it, not a single one.

    You just keep repeating the truther WTC 7 dogma. Have you ever talked to anyone who was on site at 9/11? I have. You can find The Chief of Department FDNY Daniel Nigro’s statement on my website. Unless of course you accuse him of being in on it as well.

  114. b. j. edwards Says:

    Greg Gerdes,

    Don’t worry, Greg, you’re 9/11 Denial is right in the same trash bin of history as your Holocaust Denial. Denial is denial is denial, after all, and that’s where you feel most at home.

    We’ll stick with reason, critical thinking, and the scientific method, your avowed enemies.

  115. PaulY Says:

    paul fauvet Says:

    “Gerdes is not clear about what he imagines Treblinka was, if not an extermination camp.”

    That was the most blatently false thing said on this site so far. Please go to http://nafcash.com/ and read what Mr. Gerdes proves Treblinka was. Here is an example from the site:

    “Every alleged German “death camp” is best understood when looked at as a holocaust within the holocaust. No matter what anyone thinks about the holocaust per se, one thing is eminently clear – the Treblinka holocaust didn’t happen. To believe that the Germans could “obliterate” all evidence of the murder of 870,000 Jews requires incredible gullibility and a lack of intelligence, logic and critical thinking skills. It requires a belief in magic and a rejection of criminology, archeology and forensic science. IF there was a Treblinka holocaust, then there are huge mass graves filled with millions of pounds of crushed bone to prove it. Until the alleged huge mass graves of Treblinka are found – NO mass graves = NO crushed bone = NO burning of bodies = NO homicidal gas chambers = NO mass murder = NO extermination camp = NO Treblinka holocaust = THE TRUTH – TREBLINKA II WAS A TRANSIT CAMP, and the so called gas chambers were, in reality, delousing facilities designed to protect the health and prolong the lives of the shameless liars who fraudulently claimed to be the victims of a genocidal extermination program. It takes a special kind of credulous dullard to believe the preposterous Treblinka holohoax tale and a special kind of self-deceiving coward to deny the significance of this fraud. Remember, there are only two options: extermination center (for those who believe in magic) and TRANSIT CAMP (for those who believe in the scientific method). There is no third option – and only one truth.”

    Please notice also that Mr. Fauvet refused to answer the simple questions Mr. Gerdes has asked him. If Mr. Fauvet believes that there was a revolt at the Treblinka transit camp, then he must believe the whole nonsense about the “huge mass graves.” So where are they Paul?

    Please show us all where the “huge mass graves” of Treblinka are Mr. Fauvet. After all, you do want to put an end to holocuast denial don’t you?

    As for Mr. Edwards, please notice his continued refusal to answer Mr. Gerdes’s questions also. But don’t worry BJ, we know why you refuse to answer those questions. Cowardice is cowardice is cowardice after all, and that is where you feel most at home.

    As to your so-called reason, critical thinking, and the scientific method, could you please use them to show us all where the “huge mass graves” of Treblinka are? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial, don’t you BJ?

    Refusal to show us where the “huge mass graves” of treblinka are = cowardice

  116. PaulY Says:

    From http://nafcash.com/

    Lest you think there must be some truth to the alleged Treblinka holocaust NAFCASH TM is offering a $250,000.00
    REWARD For locating JUST ONE of the alleged “HUGE MASS GRAVES” of Treblinka. NAFCASH TM presents

    THE TREBLINKA CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION CHALLENGE TM

    You must scientifically – forensically prove the grave’s EXACT location, its EXACT dimensions and its EXACT volumetric density. The cremated remains must total at least one percent of the alleged mass murder.

    JUST ONE MASS GRAVE! – JUST ONE PERCENT!

    Now who in their right mind could believe the official story that the Treblinka site was “utterly eradicated” by a layer of soil and couldn’t be detected today with the use of modern archeological / forensic science techniques? Compounding the obvious absurdity that the pseudo “science” of history gives eyewitness testimony more credence than tangible physical evidence (or the lack thereof) is the fact that every single “eyewitness” that helped to “historically” prove the preposterous Treblinka legend was a shameless PATHOLOGICAL LIAR. Don’t believe it? Then winning THE TREBLINKA CSI CHALLENGE TM should be like taking candy from a baby. (Unless you’re sticking with the perfect crime / magically disappearing Jew “theory.”) If however, you acknowledge the fact that Treblinka is a literal Jewish conspiracy (And what honest, intelligent person wouldn’t?), wait until you examine the absurd lies of the other three alleged pure extermination centers and Babi Yar. They’re essentially mirror images of the Treblinka fairy tale replete with the asinine millions of pounds of magically disappearing evidence yarn. And if the camp with the most alleged “eyewitnesses / survivors” has been scientifically debunked, then what are the chances that the absurd legends of the other camps are true?

    Since Michael Shermer (the president of the “Skeptics” Society and publisher of “SKEPTIC” magazine) has such disdain for real skeptics (i.e. – intelligent / logical people who refuse to share his delusion that millions of Jews can magically vanish from the face of the earth without leaving a trace), “SKEPTIC” magazine should be more than willing to publish the results of any scientific investigation that claims to have proven that the largest of the asinine pure extermination center legends has been forensically proven to be a fact. Therefore, all one has to do to become a claimant for THE TREBLINKA CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION CHALLENGE TM reward is to have said claims / results published in “SKEPTIC” Magazine. Now, just how hard should it be for the “we-must-see-compelling-evidence-before-we-believe” sham “Skeptics” Society to prove just 1% of the alleged mass murder at Treblinka IF the official story is true?

    No graves = No Treblinka holocaust

  117. TM Akashi Says:

    Mr. Gerdes writes:
    Why don’t you read the whole of Shermers whining drivel, rather than just the headline?

    Dear Mr. Gerdes,
    I did read it and I think you misread it. The reference to the David Irving quote (which you quoted) was used by Shermer to indicate faulty logic on the part of holocaust deniers like Irving. There is no reference to Treblinka, until you first brought it up in comment 65. I’ll stand by my statement, the focus of this topic is “9/11 “Truthers” Harass Shermer on Book Tour”. Please stay on topic.

    Mr. Gerdes writes:
    And while you’re in the mood for answering questions Akashi, let’s see if you can answer this one (After all, you did want to discuss the WTC bombings – didn’t you?) -Was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Dear Mr. Gerdes,
    Although you might classify me (and others) as 9/11 deniers, that would be incorrect. There were planes that were hijacked and flown into WTC1 and 2. I am well aware of the government and media account of what happened. The problem I have is WTC7 should not have gone down like a controlled demolition. FEMA’s own investigative report advocates further investigation and research on WTC7. I will only focus on WTC7 questions/comments, to help encourage further investigations. Others can address other 9/11 issues.

  118. PaulY Says:

    TM Akashi Says: “I will only focus on WTC7 questions/comments, to help encourage further investigations. Others can address other 9/11 issues.”

    So what you’re saying TM, you lack the courage and/or integrity to answer the extremely simple question Mr. Gerders has posed to you? Maybe you will answer it if I ask you:

    “Please notice the 9/11 true believers continued and craven refusal to answer any and all questions reguarding the 1993 WTC bombing that, at the very least, was allowed to happen by the FBi and other government agencies. Even when directly challenged, the 9/11 falsifiers hide from this questtion –

    Was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question –

    #1

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

    (Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)

    #2

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    *

    What’s wrong Akashi, cat got your tounge?”

    PS: Mr. Gerdes, the reason Akashi refuses to answer your question is because he’s a liar and a coward. And keep up with the holocast questions. You’re making all the false skeptics on this site look like the fools they are. Like you said:

    “If “the world’s foremost skeptic” (who insists his sophomoric CONVERGENCE OF EVIDENCE theory historically proves the holocaust), can’t scientifically locate even one of the alleged huge mass graves of Treblinka and can’t forensically prove even 1% of this absurd myth, then what does that say about the veracity of this so-called historically proven fact? Shermer’s sophistry is akin to a scientist claiming that he has proven the great flood / Noah’s Ark fable by using nothing but bible verses! What we’re challenging anyone to prove is undeniably a scientifically knowable truth and a forensically provable fact. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.”

    No graves = No Treblinka holocaust

  119. TM Akashi Says:

    Mr. fauvet writes:
    1. TM Akashi accepts my argument that American officials couldn’t have planted explosives to bring down the WTC towers for fear that there would be a leak and they would be caught. He gets round this problem by the even more fantastic suggestion that the job was somehow sub-contracted to Mossad.

    2. If an Israeli agent had been apprehended placing explosives in the WTC, what would that have done to US-Israel relations?

    3. Whatever one may think of the Israeli government, it is certainly not suicidal, and is not going to risk the support it enjoys in the United States which is so crucial to Israel’s survival.

    4. Finally, if the plot was to bring down the towers in a controlled demolition, then why hijack the four aircraft at all ?

    Dear Mr. fauvet,
    1. I see nothing outrageous about writing that Mossad is the likely candidate for who could have planted the explosives. The U.S. military and CIA already carry out secret missions (in which people are killed) for Israel AND Israel would certainly carry out secret military and Mossad operations (in which people are killed) for their U.S. allies. To emphasize the point, Mossad would not be attacking the U.S., but merely doing a favor for a friend (the U.S. administration).
    You object to my suggesting Mossad. If you have a better alternative, please let me know.

    2. Cheney and Rumsfeld would have been prepared to step in to keep it secret.

    3. If Israeli leaders deemed it “crucial to Israel’s survival”, then that is why they would do it. Since money is such a huge corrupter, tens of $billion is also a huge incentive for rationalizing crimes. Israel is a chess player and occasionally you take gambles, especially when the rewards are great and the risks are low.

    4. The hijacked jets became the plausible reason for the towers to come down, thus preventing an investigation of any planted demolitions, which has worked so far. WTC7 seems to be (one of the places) where they made a huge miscalculation. In a way, WTC7 is the smoking gun, which points to Bush Cheney Rumsfeld’s criminality. The problem is that the vast public does not understand steel-framed construction and WTC7 is kept out of the news.

  120. TM Akashi Says:

    Dear Mr. PaulY,
    Please stay on topic and follow proper etiquette.

  121. TM Akashi Says:

    ref writes;
    A. Take a look at this page:
    http://www.secertboard.org/Docs/Listing_by_State_12-07.pdf

    B. You just keep repeating the truther WTC 7 dogma. Have you ever talked to anyone who was on site at 9/11? I have. You can find The Chief of Department FDNY Daniel Nigro’s statement on my website. Unless of course you accuse him of being in on it as well.

    TM Akashi writes:
    A. I looked at the page which lists recently certified structural engineers. I am well aware that there are hundreds of certified structural engineers. Here is my reply to why every certified structural engineer has not signed up:
    First, only a small percentage of the public even knows how many towers fell that day. Second, only a small percentage of certified structural engineers are aware of the details about WTC7. Third, only the bravest would be willing to go on record as questioning the official account, since they risk loosing jobs. Most would rationalize that they have much to loose ($1000s) and nothing to gain, so why do it.

    At http://www.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php, I counted approx. 50 licensed professional engineers and approx. 84 licensed engineering professionals.
    There are approx. 72 degreed architects and approx. 25 non-U.S. architects, engineers, or AE professionals. Approx. 800 other individuals also signed. From what I saw as their credentials, I think you mislead about the quality of their credentials

    B. I have already mentioned the people who (I suspect) were involved in the collapse of WTC7, and Daniel Nigro was not one of them. I went to your website and read Mr. Nigro’s reasons for WTC7 collapsing, which are:
    1 – Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.
    2. The collapse of WTC 1 damaged portions of the lower floors of WTC 7.
    3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns providing an open Atrium on the lower levels.
    4. numerous fires on many floors of WTC 7 burned without sufficient water supply to attack them.

    My response to his reasons:
    1. No high-rise structures had ever collapsed (other than controlled demolitions).
    2 – 4. FEMA’s own report on WTC7:
    “Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Further research, investigation, and analysis are needed to resolve this issue. [Ch. 5, p. 31.]”
    FEMA’s investigation discounts damage from falling debris and cannot explain how fires could have done it. They don’t know, because steel-framed buildings do not fall like that.

    Mr. ref, I see that you have created a whole website to refute the 9/11 “Truth” movement. My first question would be to ask if you voted for Bush, as you then would have an unconscious bias to try to protect your self-esteem. If you did vote for Bush, you have been misled about Iraq and you have been misled about 9/11.
    From your website, here is your first statement about why WTC1, 2, and 7 fell that day, “The towers had their unique design.” Sorry, but you should know that every building is unique in its own way. Your statement fails to recognize the expertise of structural engineers and of building codes. The smoking gun is WTC7 which should not have collapsed, because steel framed high-rises don’t collapse like that (unless by controlled demolition). I suggest you consider taking your site down, as you are covering up for criminals. (In 2003, I wrote that Iraq didn’t have any connection to 9/11, no nuke danger, and no connection to Al Qaeda. I mention this because, it is possible to see through their lies).

  122. Greg Gerdes Says:

    PaulY Says:

    “Please notice also that Mr. Fauvet refused to answer the simple questions Mr. Gerdes has asked him. If Mr. Fauvet believes that there was a revolt at the Treblinka transit camp, then he must believe the whole nonsense about the “huge mass graves.” So where are they Paul?

    Please show us all where the “huge mass graves” of Treblinka are Mr. Fauvet. After all, you do want to put an end to holocuast denial don’t you?

    As for Mr. Edwards, please notice his continued refusal to answer Mr. Gerdes’s questions also. But don’t worry BJ, we know why you refuse to answer those questions. Cowardice is cowardice is cowardice after all, and that is where you feel most at home.

    As to your so-called reason, critical thinking, and the scientific method, could you please use them to show us all where the “huge mass graves” of Treblinka are? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial, don’t you BJ?

    Refusal to show us where the “huge mass graves” of treblinka are = cowardice”

    And:

    “TM Akashi Says: “I will only focus on WTC7 questions/comments, to help encourage further investigations. Others can address other 9/11 issues.”

    So what you’re saying TM, you lack the courage and/or integrity to answer the extremely simple question Mr. Gerders has posed to you? Maybe you will answer it if I ask you:

    “Please notice the 9/11 true believers continued and craven refusal to answer any and all questions reguarding the 1993 WTC bombing that, at the very least, was allowed to happen by the FBi and other government agencies. Even when directly challenged, the 9/11 falsifiers hide from this questtion –

    Was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question –

    #1

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

    (Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)

    #2

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    Yes PaulY – “Refusal to show us where the “huge mass graves” of treblinka are = cowardice.” As is Akashi’s refusal to answer the question about Emad Salem and the 1993 WTC bombing. The very fact that these pseudo “skeptics” refuse to acknowledge the facts about Treblinka and Mr. Salem prove that their “arguments” are fundamentally sophistic.

    TM Akashi Says:

    “2. If an Israeli agent had been apprehended placing explosives in the WTC, what would that have done to US-Israel relations?

    3. Whatever one may think of the Israeli government, it is certainly not suicidal, and is not going to risk the support it enjoys in the United States which is so crucial to Israel’s survival.”

    Apparently TM hasn’t heard of Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty – http://www.gtr5.com/ :

    “On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. This USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

    After surveilling USS Liberty for more than nine hours with almost hourly aircraft over flights and radar tracking, the air and naval forces of Israel attacked our ship in international waters without warning. USS Liberty was identified as a US naval ship nine hours before the attack by Israeli reconnaissance aircraft and continuously tracked by Israeli radar and aircraft thereafter. Sailing in international waters at less than five knots, with no offensive armament, our ship was not a military threat to anyone.

    The Israeli forces attacked without warning and without attempting to contact us. Thirty four Americans were killed in the attack and another 174 were wounded.”

    The Isaeli’s risked the unconditional support of the US in 1967 and was caught redhanded murdering 34 Americans. So much for that nonsensical thesis, huh Tm?

    *

    There was no Treblinka holocaust

  123. Greg Gerdes Says:

    So Sorry, that last part should have read “Mr. fauvet writes:” rather than “TM Akashi Says:”

  124. PaulY Says:

    Beware of posuers pretending to be 9-11 truthers

    TM Akashi Says:

    (post #99) “Their motive was not an attack on the U.S., because Israel is our friend.”

    Mmmmm. Israel is our friend huh? Now there’s a red flag if I ever saw one.

    (post #105) “As I previously wrote “a chunk of steel, which fell off of WTC1, bounced off of WTC6 then hit the side of WTC7 causing a gash and some fires.”

    Mmmmm. A chunk of steel hitting WTC7 caused the fires huh?

    (post #106) “…Although it was probably unintentional by Mr. Shermer, throwing 9/11 conspiracy theorists in with holocaust deniers is getting many off topic. So, unless your intent is behave ignorantly, please take the holocaust discussion somewhere else.

    Mmmmm. Mr. Gerdes is ruthlessly exposing Shermers fraudulent work on the holocaust, slapping the crap out of all the false skeptics in the process, which in turn totally discredits any of shammers work on 9/11, and TM Akashi wants Mr. Gerdes to take this totally effective method of discrediting Shammer and his sychophants somewhere else? And notice that he implicitly refers to those in the holocaust truth movement “holocaust deniers” rather than holocaust truthers. Just couldn’t help yourself, huh TM Akashi?

    (post #117) “…the focus of this topic is “9/11 “Truthers” Harass Shermer on Book Tour”. Please stay on topic.”

    Mmmmm. Again, trying to redirect Mr. Gerdes’s totall debunking of shermers holocaust drivel, all the while refusing to answer the question Mr. Gerdes posed to him:

    “And while you’re in the mood for answering questions Akashi, let’s see if you can answer this one (After all, you did want to discuss the WTC bombings – didn’t you?) –

    Was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question –

    #1

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

    (Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)

    #2

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    *

    Now why would someone claiming to be a 9/11 truther refuse to acknowledge the truth about Emad Salem?

    (more post #117)”I am well aware of the government and media account of what happened. The problem I have is WTC7 should not have gone down like a controlled demolition.”

    Mmmmm. Please notice that TM Akashi is implicitly affirming the government/media’s account of WTC1 & WTC2.

    (post #121) “1 – Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.”

    And there it is, this time EXPLICITLY affirming the government/media’s account of WTC1 & WTC2. Some 9/11 truther TM Akashi turns out to be huh?

    (more post #121) “3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns…”

    Mmmmm. TM Akashi calls the 81 columns of WTC#7 “a small number” Can you say “deliberate misinformation?”

    And finally, why did TM Akashi refuse to take Mr. Gerdes up on his offer to “take the holocaust discussion somewhere else” when offered the chance?

    Greg Gerdes:

    I will make a deal with you Akashi. If you can show us were the “huge mass graves” of Treblinka are (you know, the “huge mass graves” that allegedly contain the remains of 870,000 jews – the alleged largest mass grave site in the history of mankind – allegedly located in the SE third of a 22 acre field), I will stop embarassing all you false skeptics with my easy questions that not one skeptic has had the courage and/or integrity to answer and take the holocuast discussion elsewhere.

    Answer Mr. Gerdes’s questons fraud.

    TM Akashi is a fraud, just like Michael Shermer.

  125. PaulY Says:

    Mr. Gerdes wrote:

    Apparently TM [Akashi] hasn’t heard of Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty –

    Well of course not Mr. Gerdes, haven’t you heard? According to TM Akashi, Israel is our “friend.”

    “On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. This USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

    After surveilling USS Liberty for more than nine hours with almost hourly aircraft over flights and radar tracking, the air and naval forces of Israel attacked our ship in international waters without warning. USS Liberty was identified as a US naval ship nine hours before the attack by Israeli reconnaissance aircraft and continuously tracked by Israeli radar and aircraft thereafter. Sailing in international waters at less than five knots, with no offensive armament, our ship was not a military threat to anyone.

    The Israeli forces attacked without warning and without attempting to contact us. Thirty four Americans were killed in the attack and another 174 were wounded.”

    With friends like Israel, who needs enemies?

  126. TM Akashi Says:

    Dear Mr. Gerdes and Mr. PaulY,

    This is request #2… please stay on topic, “9/11 “Truthers” Harass Shermer on Book Tour”

    The two of you can post your holocaust comments at
    http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/skeptic_forum/index.html

    PaulY wrote:

    Mmmmm. Please notice that TM Akashi is implicitly affirming the government/media’s account of WTC1 & WTC2.

    (post #121) “1 – Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed, The collapse of WTC 1 & 2 showed that certain high-rise structures subjected to damage from impact and from fire will collapse.”

    And there it is, this time EXPLICITLY affirming the government/media’s account of WTC1 & WTC2. Some 9/11 truther TM Akashi turns out to be huh?

    (more post #121) “3. WTC 7, we knew, was built on a small number of large columns…”

    Mmmmm. TM Akashi calls the 81 columns of WTC#7 “a small number” Can you say “deliberate misinformation?”

    TA Akashi replies:
    Perhaps it is not totally your fault, since text formatting is somewhat limited. What you attribute to me is really what was what NYFD Chief Nigro gave as reasons WTC7 collapsed. This is the sentence that immediately preceded the comments that you attribute to me.
    “I (Akashi) went to your (ref) website and read Mr. Nigro’s reasons for WTC7 collapsing, which are:”

    Below Mr. Nigro’s comments, I refuted them with my comments. It would help if you calmed down and read more carefully. It would help if you also quit calling people names, as that is common bb etiquette. Please remember the topic is 9/11. Please remember that I will focus on WTC7 comments.

  127. ref Says:

    To TM Akashi:

    I couldn’t have voted for Bush, as I live in Finland on the other side of the globe. Even if I lived there in the US, I would never have voted for Bush. Still, that dislike doesn’t justify blaming him for something he did not do.

    The towers and WTC 7 indeed had a unique design. I mentioned that, because truthers (including AE911Truth) keep saying that no other high rises have ever collapsed, and compare the WTC buildings to the likes of Madrid Windsor, which had a reinforced concrete structure. Now that’s deceitful. WTC 1 & 2 had a tube in tube steel desing, and WTC 7 had a unique desing that relied on a few trusses, because it was located on top of a underground station. That’s why damage low to the structure was so damaging to the entire structure.

    Show me other examples of building with similar desing, first damaged by airliners or falling debris, and further damaged by unfought fires. Then you have a case claiming no other building have collapsed, thus WTC shoudn’t have. Otherwise not.

    I have devoted my site to debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, yes. I did it because I grew tired of the lies, distortions, omissions, misrepresentations and false claims of the truth movement. And I have no intentions of taking it down.

    You accuse people of crimes with no evidence, based on bad research and outrageous claims. And you even try to tie the Iraq fiasco into this. You also pay no respect to the intergrity of structural engineers. You say they just keep silent in fear of loosing job, or that they don’t know how many buildings even collapsed. The boring reality is, they know the collapses were natural occurrances due to damage and fires. That’s why they don’t sign those petitions. That’s no secret.

    And finally, about the AE911Truth credentials. Anyone can sign their petition, that’s why they have over 800 common members. But they also claim to have 263 architects and engineers as of today. Show me how many structural engineers they have, and how many of those engineers are software engineers and such? I’m not misleading about their credentials. They are, when they claim software engineers and landscape architects are building experts. They do have some real architects and some engineers. But those few are just plain wrong. They either misrepresent some figures, are driven by agenda, or just refuse to listen. I have seen many them totally fail when they have come posting at JREF forum. They just can’t admit being wrong.

    That’s all for now.

  128. b. j. edwards Says:

    PaulY squirmed…

    February 5th, 2008 at 8:27 am

    “As for Mr. Edwards, please notice his continued refusal to answer Mr. Gerdes’s questions also. But don’t worry BJ, we know why you refuse to answer those questions.”

    Let’s see, I trashed Holocaust Deniers about a decade ago when you were still in diapers, just like Shermer and Lipstadt did.

    Once again, you demonstrate that one can never underestimate the intelligence of Holocaust and 9/11 Deniers.

  129. PaulY Says:

    TM Akashi wrote:

    “I too wondered who had the people and motive to place those demolitions, without the fear of a leak. I had to rule out anyone in our government because of the danger of a leak. I heard someone suggest Mossad as the likely candidate. Everyone would agree that they have the knowledge and ability. They had the opportunity when all security systems were shut down two weeks prior to 9/11, when “security” upgrades were being performed. Their motive was not an attack on the U.S., because Israel is our friend. Their motive was to do a favor for a friend, as Cheney-Rumsfeld all wanted a “Pearl Harbor-like event”…. It was a win-win-win, Israel would only be doing us a favor, and no one in Mossad would ever consider leaking information, as that would be extremely bad for Israel. All Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld had to do was to leave a few doors open, and that is what they did. Afterwards, they had to make sure that any incriminating evidence was removed, and they did that quite well also.”

    Lol. TM Akashi calls all the war games and drills of hijacked planes flying into the pentagon and the WTC’s on 9/11 as “leaving a few doors open.” Lol. And he thinks the only people who were privy to this charade in the U.S. government was Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld! Lol. Oh stop it TM Akashi, you’re killing me. Lol.

    You’re a posuer TM Akashi, and a really poor one at that. And that, by definition means you’re a fraud. That’s not name calling TM Akashi, that is simply calling a spade a spade. Or more correctly, a fraud a fraud.

    By the way, TM Akashi, if you admitt that the mossad was involved in the 2001 WTC bombings, then surely you will admit the truth about Guzie Hadas being a mossad agent involved in the 1993 WTC bombing? All the information needed to help you make this admission can be found here

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    After all, you do want to expose the mossad as the terrorists that they are, don’t you TM Akashi?

  130. PaulY Says:

    b. j. edwards Says:

    “Let’s see, I trashed Holocaust Deniers about a decade ago when you were still in diapers, just like Shermer and Lipstadt did.”

    Could you be more specific bj? I would like to review your work. Please give us a link to your “scholarship.”

    As for the fraud shermer, his fraud has been exposed so completely at http://nafcash.com/ that he’s afraid to even bring the subject up in public and he’s been running from Mr. Gerdes for years. Here’s a good quote from the nafcash site:

    “As the holocaust scholar Paul Grubach so poignantly noted after his equally unsuccessful attempt to debate Shermer: “Will Dr. Shermer accept my challenge? I doubt it. When he crossed swords with revisionist historian Mark Weber, it was a disaster for Shermer and the traditional view of the Holocaust. Weber made Holocaust revisionism look too good for Shermer’s liking, and the traditional view of the Holocaust severely deficient. Furthermore, many who saw the debate said that Shermer appeared amateurish, and at times, even foolish. Since that disaster, Shermer has never (to my knowledge) engaged another Holocaust revisionist in public debate. It appears as though Shermer is fearful of undermining the media-created, public image of himself as the “Great Guru of Skepticism.” To cross swords with Holocaust revisionists would call public attention to the severe deficiencies in his own work and Holocaust historiography in general. His strategy seems to be as follows: Never again engage a revisionist in debate, just write about them in mainstream, establishment media outlets. In this way, he can selectively create any image of revisionists and revisionist historiography he so chooses, without ever having to worry about the negative fallout resulting from an expose of the fallacies, errors and omissions in his work on the Holocaust.””

    And you think that Lipstadt thrashed the deniers huh? How come she can’t answer this question then

    Bradley R. Smith
    PO Box 439016
    San Ysidro CA 92143
    Desk: 209 682 5327
    Cell: 619 203 3151
    Email: bradley1930@yahoo.com
    Web: http://www.codoh.com

    04 February 2009

    Prof. Deborah Lipstadt
    Professor of Modern Jewish History and Holocaust Studies
    Emory University
    Atlanta, Georgia

    Dear Professor Lipstadt:

    Can you provide, with proof, the identity of one person killed in a German gas chamber at Auschwitz?

    Thank you.

    Bradley R. Smith

    End

    *

    A NOTE TO THOSE TO WHOM I HAVE COPIED THIS LETTER

    The above is the exact text of the 18-word question that I have put to Professor Lipstadt. We were told for four decades that four millions were killed at Auschwitz in gas chambers. Today we are told that about one million were killed there in gas chambers. I am asking for the identity, with proof, of one (one) person killed in a German gas chamber at Auschwitz.

    I am perfectly aware that in America there is a taboo against asking this question, or any question like it. I understand that in much of Europe, and in Israel, asking such a question can very well cause you to be prosecuted and imprisoned for “thought crimes.” Whether you are an academic, a journalist, or an interested third party, I should think that you would agree that my question to Professor Lipstadt suggests an irony that for Americans is, or should be, too obvious to need explanation.

    Bradley R. Smith

    Perhaps you can answer Mr. Smith’s question for us bj. It shouldn’t be to hard for you should it, being a holocaust scholar and all? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial – don’t you bj?

    The alleged Treblinka holocaust is as fraudulent as Shermer.

  131. PaulY Says:

    b. j. edwards Says:

    “Let’s see, I trashed Holocaust Deniers about a decade ago when you were still in diapers, just like Shermer and Lipstadt did.”

    Please provid a link to your alleged “scholarship” bj, I would like to review it.

    As for shermer, his holocaust “research” has been so thoroughly discredited by http://nafcash.com/ that he’s been running from Mr. Gerdes for years. A great quote from the nafcash site:

    “[To Michael Shermer] …This will be the third and last time that I challenge you to a debate. I will have no other recourse than to assume that your continued craven refusal to address my questions and charges constitutes undeniable proof that you are in fact a coward, hypocrite and fraud… Let me reiterate the basis of my charges… you claim to have visited Treblinka itself (as well as Belzec and Sobibor) to… “Test the claims that no mass murders, especially by gassing, took place by intention at these camps.”… So, for the record, just what scientific tests did you conduct at Treblinka in the first place and just how did the Treblinka holocaust pass these so-called scientific tests and where EXACTLY are these alleged “mass graves” of Treblinka that you claim exist and just how EXACTLY is it that you know for sure that they contain the crushed bone and ash of the alleged 870,000 murdered people at Treblinka? Simple, reasonable and logical questions from a REAL skeptic, based on skeptical inquiry and the scientific method. We’re waiting Mike!”

    …As the holocaust scholar Paul Grubach so poignantly noted after his equally unsuccessful attempt to debate Shermer: “Will Dr. Shermer accept my challenge? I doubt it. When he crossed swords with revisionist historian Mark Weber, it was a disaster for Shermer and the traditional view of the Holocaust. Weber made Holocaust revisionism look too good for Shermer’s liking, and the traditional view of the Holocaust severely deficient. Furthermore, many who saw the debate said that Shermer appeared amateurish, and at times, even foolish. Since that disaster, Shermer has never (to my knowledge) engaged another Holocaust revisionist in public debate. It appears as though Shermer is fearful of undermining the media-created, public image of himself as the “Great Guru of Skepticism.” To cross swords with Holocaust revisionists would call public attention to the severe deficiencies in his own work and Holocaust historiography in general. His strategy seems to be as follows: Never again engage a revisionist in debate, just write about them in mainstream, establishment media outlets. In this way, he can selectively create any image of revisionists and revisionist historiography he so chooses, without ever having to worry about the negative fallout resulting from an expose of the fallacies, errors and omissions in his work on the Holocaust.””

    Maybe you can tell us all where the “huge mass graves” of Treblinka are bj? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial – don’t you?

  132. TM Akashi Says:

    PaulY Says:
    February 5th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
    Beware of posuers pretending to be 9-11 truthers

    Dear Mr. PaulY,
    This is request #3, please stay on topic. I have suggested a perfect place for you to carry on your holocaust and 1993 concerns. If you need help, ask and I will give you step-by-step directions.
    http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/skeptic_forum/index.html
    If you continue to go off topic, I must assume that you are either “the poseur” or you have a mental/emotional handicap.

    Everyone else who is interested in discussing 9/11, I have a favor to ask. Please stay on topic and ignore (do not respond to or mention) people who go off topic.

  133. TM Akashi Says:

    ref Says (to TM Akashi):
    I couldn’t have voted for Bush, as I live in Finland on the other side of the globe. Even if I lived there in the US, I would never have voted for Bush. Still, that dislike doesn’t justify blaming him for something he did not do.

    Thanks for your answer and glad to read that you are intelligent enough that you would never have voted for W. I am very impressed that you live in Finland and have taken such a time-consuming interest countering the 9/11 Truth advocates. I’m assuming that your interest in 9/11 is as a skeptic. As far as blaming W for something he did not do, well, Cheney/Rumsfeld were really the ones controlling the strings and W was just the puppet. In all fairness, I have to admit that I could be wrong about many of the details, but WTC7 (as the FEMA report recommends) needs to be investigated and reported to the full public. But, even though FEMA recommends that, Cheney will prevent that from happening, because he knows that it is the smoking gun.

    ref says:
    The towers and WTC 7 indeed had a unique design. I mentioned that, because truthers (including AE911Truth) keep saying that no other high rises have ever collapsed, and compare the WTC buildings to the likes of Madrid Windsor, which had a reinforced concrete structure. Now that’s deceitful.

    1. At your recommendation, I read Mr. Nigro’s reasons which you have at your website. It was Mr. Nigro who wrote, “Although prior to that day high-rise structures had never collapsed”. I responded to that information, yet you want to accuse 9/11Truthers of deceit. ref, if you want to be a real skeptic, you have to be skeptical of yourself.
    2. Because of what you wrote, I googled the Madrid Windsor, since you made it sound like it collapsed. It did not collapse. In fact, it is a perfect example of what WTC1 and 2 should have looked like, in a worse case scenerio; the interior superstructure intact. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Building

    ref says:
    Show me other examples of building with similar desing, first damaged by airliners or falling debris, and further damaged by unfought fires. Then you have a case claiming no other building have collapsed, thus WTC shoudn’t have. Otherwise not.

    Bankers Trust, across the street from WTC2. Add to that WTC3, 4, 5, and 6. Add to that a half dozen other buildings around the Twin Towers. But you will claim that they are not a similar design to WTC7 as justification. Yet, all of those buildings were built to the same engineering standards and codes as WTC7, four of them received much worse damage when WTC1 and 2 fell, yet they did not collapse.

    ref says:
    I have devoted my site to debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, yes. I did it because I grew tired of the lies, distortions, omissions, misrepresentations and false claims of the truth movement. And I have no intentions of taking it down.

    Too bad you didn’t grow tired of the lies, distortions, omissions, misrepresentations and false claims of the Bush administration.

    ref says:
    You accuse people of crimes with no evidence, based on bad research and outrageous claims.

    I realize that after all of the endless hours of research that you have put in to try to make your site valuable, it must be rather shocking to be potentially wrong. Yes, I can see that anyone who hasn’t put in equal time and effort must have bad research. No evidence you say. How about three video recordings of the collapse of WTC7 and FEMA’s own report on WTC7. Add to that the known criminal behavior of Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bush (see my website).

    ref says:
    The boring reality is… That’s why they don’t sign those petitions…. But those few are just plain wrong…. They either misrepresent some figures, are driven by agenda, or just refuse to listen…. They just can’t admit being wrong.

    A true skeptic must be able to be skeptical of themselves. In that regard, you are not a true skeptic, for you assume that what you think is correct. You didn’t vote for Bush, but you invested hundreds of hours into your research, so you (subconsciously) won’t recognize an error. That error is WTC7.
    As you are a tireless researcher, please let me know if any steel-framed, high-rise building has ever collapsed (other than by controlled demolition). From what I know about science and construction, I don’t think that has ever happened.

  134. PaulY Says:

    Please notice the poseur TM Akashi’s continued refusal to answer the simple questions Mr. Gerdes has posed to him.

    Greg Gerdes Says:

    Please notice the 9/11 true believers continued and craven refusal to answer any and all questions reguarding the 1993 WTC bombing that, at the very least, was allowed to happen by the FBi and other government agencies. Even when directly challenged, the 9/11 falsifiers hide from this questtion –

    Was Emad Salem an FBI informant?

    Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question –

    #1

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html

    (Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)

    #2

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    **

    The fact is, they can’t answer the question because it would pull the rug out from under thier delusional fantasy that the government had no prior knowledge of the 2001 WTC bombings.

    Michael Shermer and all his sychophant wannabe “skeptics,” are liars, gross hypocrites, cowards and frauds. If anyone of you 9/11 falsifiers thinks this is too harsh, then answer the question.

    and Greg Gerdes aslo wrote:

    Please note that Akashi cowardly refused to answer my questions also. Of course, as Shermer has proven over and over again, lack of courage is a hallmark of schleptic society “skeptics.”

    I will make a deal with you Akashi. If you can show us were the “huge mass graves” of Treblinka are (you know, the “huge mass graves” that allegedly contain the remains of 870,000 jews – the alleged largest mass grave site in the history of mankind – allegedly located in the SE third of a 22 acre field), I will stop embarassing all you false skeptics with my easy questions that not one skeptic has had the courage and/or integrity to answer and take the holocuast discussion elsewhere.

    Is it a deal Akashi? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial – don’t you?”

    What Possible reason would a reak 9/11 truther have for not admitting the truth about Emad Salem? None what so-ever. And the same goes for those who claim to be 9/11 “debunkers” like ref.

    ref says:

    “I have devoted my site to debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, yes. I did it because I grew tired of the lies, distortions, omissions, misrepresentations and false claims of the truth movement. And I have no intentions of taking it down.”

    Well then ref, surely you have the courage and integrity to admitt the truth about Emad Salem then, right?

    And TM Akashi, If you continue to cravenly ignore simple questions, I must assume that you are either “the poseur” or you have a mental/emotional handicap.

  135. TM Akashi Says:

    Sorry, I misread ref’s posting about the Madrid Winsor. He is correct that the Madrid Winsor’s core was concrete reinforced and WTC1 and 2 were not, but the twin towers core was the towers superstructure, which could stand even if the surrounding floors collapsed. But I diverge, as my point is WTC7 should not have collapsed like a controlled demolition.

    For those who don’t have a knowledge of steel construction, this description might help:
    In the 50s, they made a kit called the Erector set. It consists of collections of small metal beams with regular holes for nuts, bolts, and other parts. Using the small metal beams, nuts, and bolts, you could build steel-framed structures. Try to imagine building a model of a steel-framed high-rise, using many small beams for support. For extra realism, imagine placing a heavy object (phone book, concrete block, etc) on top. This will represent WTC7.
    To simulate damage to the side, take out a couple of the small steel beams. To simulate fire, crumple up some newspaper, put it in your model and light it with a match. I hope you can realize that it is impossible for your building to fall straight down. That is why (as far as we know) NO STEEL HIGH-RISE HAS EVER COLLAPSED (other than by controlled demolition).

  136. Greg Gerdes Says:

    TM Akashi Says:

    “Everyone else who is interested in discussing 9/11, I have a favor to ask. Please stay on topic and ignore (do not respond to or mention) people who go off topic.”

    Translation: Whaaaaaaaaaa. How can I continue pretending to be a 9/11 truther if Greg and Paul continually show me up as the amateur poseur that I am? How can I continue with my sophistry if I can’t control the content of the discussion? How can I continue to pretend that the U.S. government was not involved in the 2001 bombings if I’m forced to admitt that they were involved in the 1993 bombing? Whaaaaaaaaaaaa.

    PaulY Says:

    “Please provid a link to your alleged “scholarship” bj, I would like to review it.”

    Yes bj, I would like to see for myself this alledged “thrashing” also. You must be famous huh?

    PaulY says:

    “Mmmmm. Mr. Gerdes is ruthlessly exposing Shermers fraudulent work on the holocaust, slapping the crap out of all the false skeptics in the process, which in turn totally discredits any of shammers work on 9/11, and TM Akashi wants Mr. Gerdes to take this totally effective method of discrediting Shammer and his sychophants somewhere else? And notice that he implicitly refers to those in the holocaust truth movement as “holocaust deniers” rather than holocaust truthers. Just couldn’t help yourself, huh TM Akashi?”

    Well thank you Paul, and yes, I did notice that about TM.

    PaulY says:

    “You’re a posuer TM Akashi, and a really poor one at that. And that, by definition means you’re a fraud. That’s not name calling TM Akashi, that is simply calling a spade a spade. Or more correctly, a fraud a fraud.”

    Truer words have never been spoken PaulY. And if I hadn’t have known who you were talking about TM, I would have sworn you were talking about Shermer. Like I said in the nafcash site about shammer:

    If “the world’s foremost skeptic” (who insists his sophomoric CONVERGENCE OF EVIDENCE theory historically proves the holocaust), can’t scientifically locate even one of the alleged huge mass graves of Treblinka and can’t forensically prove even 1% of this absurd myth, then what does that say about the veracity of this so-called historically proven fact? Shermer’s sophistry is akin to a scientist claiming that he has proven the great flood / Noah’s Ark fable by using nothing but bible verses! What we’re challenging anyone to prove is undeniably a scientifically knowable truth and a forensically provable fact. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.”

    No graves = No Treblinka holocaust

  137. Greg Gerdes Says:

    PaulY says:

    “By the way, TM Akashi, if you admitt that the mossad was involved in the 2001 WTC bombings, then surely you will admit the truth about Guzie Hadas being a mossad agent involved in the 1993 WTC bombing? All the information needed to help you make this admission can be found here

    http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html

    After all, you do want to expose the mossad as the terrorists that they are, don’t you TM Akashi?”

    LOL!!! Good one PaulY. What’s wrong TM? Cat got your tounge?

    What Possible reason would a real 9/11 truther have for not admitting the truth about Emad Salem or Guzie Hadas? None what so-ever. And the same goes for those who claim to be 9/11 “debunkers” like ref, and the cowardly liars like bj.

    Treblinka and the “pure extermination centers” are to the official lies of the holocaust what the 1993 WTC bombing and WTC building #7 are to the official lies of 9/11.

    *

    There was no Treblinka holocaust

  138. Greg Gerdes Says:

    And TM Akashi, If you continue to cravenly ignore simple questions, I must assume that you are either “the poseur” or you have a mental/emotional handicap.

    *

    There was no Treblinka holocaust

  139. b. j. edwards Says:

    Holocaust Denier PaulY revealed his ignorance by writing for all to see:

    “And you think that Lipstadt thrashed the deniers huh? How come she can’t answer this question then”?

    This nitwit, PaulY, doesn’t even know that Deborah Lipstadt has made herself very clear that she NEVER debates or communicates with Holocaust Deniers for any reason whatsoever.

    As I wrote, no one can underestimate the intelligence of Holocaust Deniers. PaulY proves it once again.

  140. TM Akashi Says:

    FYI: Just found out that GG and PY’s goal is to make noise and they have no desire to learn anything. They just want to be a broken record, stuck in the same place. That’s life… my guess is that they voted for W and even like him still. They both seem to have fascist tendencies, so maybe they were in the military together, which would explain their emotional/mental handicap.

    res… well organized site… hope you aren’t a hired gun in Finland, and it is never to late to see life from the other side of the fence.

    pf… too bad we weren’t able to work out more of the details, but it was fun discussing it. Thanks.

  141. ref Says:

    TM Akashi:

    I am no hired gun. And it’s been a very educating ride putting all that stuff together. I’ve learnt a lot from various topics I have not encountered before.

    Yes, you first misread my post. Truthers use Madrid as an example of a building that didn’t collapse, and thus claim WTC shound’t have collapsed either.

    You are mistaken about the WTC 1 & 2 cores. The towers were a 3-way structure holding each other together: core, floors and perimeter columns. They were tied together, so that if you removed one of those three, the other two couldn’t stand, let alone stand on their own. This is common knowledge. You couldn’t have just a 1300ft WTC core standing on it’s own.

    You also can’t compare WTC 7 to a erector set. If you look at the design and masses, as well as the damaged portions of the building, there is no way the building would topple over like a tree. There is no force strong enough to push the top of the building sideways.

    You also misunderstood my point about Daniel Nigro’s statement. He said “Although prior to 9/11…”. That doesn’t mean the WTC buildings couldn’t have collapsed. Mr. Nigro believes they collapsed naturally. As do I. For the aforementioned reasons. Never before has a steel framed high-rise been hit by an airliner, laden with jet fuel that spaked the unfought fires. Add the removed fire-proofing to the picture with the unique design of the 3 buildings, and you have a case with no previous examples. I can name 3 buildings that have collapsed naturally due to damage and fires: WTC 1, 2 and 7.

    And I am not thinking I’m always right. I have corrected many aspects on my site numerous times. But the big picture has always remained the same. Unless I see some damning evidence pointing otherwise, that picture will also stay the same.

    Other WTC buildings were smaller and, you guessed it, of different design. You can’t just pass that as an inconvenient detail. Bankers trust was not even on fire.

    Since you believe WTC 7 is the smoking gun, can’t you wait for the NIST WTC 7 report due August 2008?

    While waiting, think about these for a second:

    – Why would they want to implode WTC 7? Insurance fraud or secret government papers won’t be good enough (one not true, other one ridicilous).
    – Why would they wait 7 hours in between WTC 1 and WTC 7 demolitions?
    – How could detonation charges survive the fires?
    – How could they know, that portions of WTC 1 would collapse into WTC 7 to give them a reason for demolition? If WTC 7 would have remained untouched, they would have had no reason to call it a natural collapse.
    – Why does Chief Nigro, who was on the scene, think it was a natural collapse based on his and FDNY’s observations?
    – Why has not a single piece of detonation cord, or other demolition evidence ever been found?
    – No loud explosions were heard prior to WTC 7 collapse
    – Steven Jones and his thermite findings are wrong. HE has found numerous spectra, which means he has numerous sources for his findings. He takes no natural sources into consideration and does not release any info on his methods + no reliable peer review.

    I have come to my conclusions based on verifiable evidence. Not hearsay, assumptions, or a gut feeling.

  142. Prof. G. J. Leonard Says:

    I wish we could dig up James Randi’s article from the early 80s on the psychology of conspiracy theorists, cryptozoologists, Shakespeare was Baconists, the whole lot. He pointed out it was an utterly safe way to claim the coveted title of rebel– unlike, for instance, saying you were a Communist. Rather than pass through life completely ignored, choose something safe but annoying to “believe,” and you get all the Somebodies at least taking the time to shake their heads over you. And if they snap at you, you’re instantly a martyr for free speech. It works. We’re talking about them. As a prof who has to handle them as students, now and then, I know that if I show annoyance, they’ll never leave me alone. If I nod and move on, they try to find some poor professor who’ll snap at them. It’s futile to debate them here. It’s all they really wanted.

  143. exile Says:

    1. Conspiracy theories have been proved to be true in the
    past

    2. Therefore MY conspiracy theory can’t be ruled out, no matter how insane it is

    or

    1. Governments have lied in the past

    therefore

    2. The government has deliberately killed thousands of its own citizens in order to …. errr…. to …… start a war in Iraq even though they never seriously tried to link Iraq to 9/11?

  144. Skeptic Says:

    >>>>>>>>>>Shermer and Maher wouldn’t happen to be a couple of rummies who’s strings are pulled, at least in part, by the likes of AIPAC and Abe Foxman …. would they?

    Typical idiotic conspiracy-theory thinking: if Shermer agreed there was a 9/11 conspiracy, there was a conspiracy. But if Shermer thinks there wasn’t a conspiracy, it’s just proof that there was a conspiracy *and* that Shermer is part of it.

    Conspiracy theorists aren’t interested in the truth, or even in logical consistency, for that matter. They’re only interested in “proving” they are correct and figured out “the secret”, and that everybody else is wrong. Makes them feel important, I guess.

    As I said, idiots.

    P.S.

    Actually, 9/11 was due to invisible purple dinosaurs. You disagree? Well, that just means you, too, were brainwashed by the invisible purple dinosaurs. So THERE!

  145. Skeptic Says:

    Incidentally, Shermer could have added Creationists to these two groups. All three–9/11 “truthters”, holocaust deniers, and creationists–are convinced they “discovered the truth” about some awful lie their “enemies” are hiding in order to subvert “the masses”. Only the “truth” and the “enemies” change.

  146. Skeptic Says:

    >>>>>>They both seem to have fascist tendencies, so maybe they were in the military together, which would explain their emotional/mental handicap.

    The problem with hating the military is that you then must live with the fact that you depends for your safety and survival on people you despise.

  147. Skeptic Says:

    Also, TM Akashi, I’m a reserve Staff Sergeant. Do you now consider me mentally deranged with fascist tendencies?

  148. Eyedunno Says:

    Michael should bring a taser to all public appearances.

  149. MJ Says:

    I would like to see some articles in Skeptic about the Federal Reserve and conspiracies surrounding our beloved inflationary central bank.

  150. marko Says:

    Hey guys, why didn’t anyone digg that yet? Michael Shermer has gathered a beautiful collection of twoofer encounters, good material! Dugg.

    Dr Shermer, I admire your patience with these kind of questions.

  151. RHM Says:

    These people are beyond annoying at this point. Michael Shermer is not alone, these guys come out for just about any political rally or appearance these days. Unfortunately, many in our population lack the emotional or intellectual maturity to review evidence and make informed decisions. As a result, they have little problem recruiting “activists”.

  152. sid Says:

    OK, whether it was conspiracy or not. Religion made the people do that or religion was used for this purpose, but who is the biggest promoter of the religion in this world. I think you know.

  153. Chris H Says:

    What ever will the troofers complain about when someone from their political party is elected?? Suddenly, their politician will be the voice of reason and truth, and “things will be completely different”. If Hillary is elected, and comes out to say the Eskimos did it, the troofers will no doubt run around trumpeting “SEE!! SEE!! WE TOLD YOU SO!”. This is a group of people who hate the government and will glom onto anything negative about it. What a waste of good breathable air they are…

  154. Bill McLean Says:

    These “truthers” bring to mind the quote which I saw attributed to Leonardo. “most men are naught but machines for turning perfectly good food into s(feces)t”

  155. Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen Says:

    What ever will the troofers complain about when someone from their political party is elected??

    They have no political party.

    As a duly elected delegate to the Tulsa Democratic Caucus in 1980 (qualifications that beat hell out of any of the “Troofers’ qualifications, I can now say officially on behalf of the Democratic Party that anybody who wants the “Troofers” can have them. We don’t want them. They’ll fit nicely into some other party’s stable (or pigpen) alongside the Timothy McVeagh defenders.

  156. atticus Says:

    Erh.

    Firstly, as I recall, America (and pretty much a quarter of the world) already went to war with Iraq in the 90s – surely if they’d already done it they could have come up with a more creative and productive rationale than murdering 3000 American’s and planting explosions to take down a half a thirty year old American icon.

    Secondly, poking holes in the melting temperature of steel (ignoring explanations from experts), or how WTC 7 collapsed or whatever; none of this strengthens whatever argument “thruthers” have. It is the same fallacy of logic that if you poke a hole in evolution, Christian creationism is the only other default answer.

    And thirdly, I don’t understand why its so hard to believe (a.k.a agree with the evidence) that a handful of religious extremists interpreted their holy text literally and were told they were immortal souls who would be heavily rewarded for eternity if they died for the glory of their god would commit murder-suicide against a country that predominantly follows a rival god. This happens all the time, every day. It just doesn’t happen in the USA every day – however this doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen or that it was never likely. In fact, given the nature of things done in the name of religion this should be relatively unsuprising.

    Also, I am sure the 9/11 report was not 100% accurate and that the government did cover up some measure of accountability – reports predicted the attacks in some form or another long before and up until then. This sweeping under the rug of the governments negligence however does not suddenly assume that the US administration, CIA, FAA, NYPD, NYFD and others were all involved in composing a violent act of murderous treason against their own countrymen – especially to justify a war with tenuous links to the attack, which could have far more easily been sold as an both an economic and political essential and an act of liberation against a suppressed dictatorship.

    I find it irritating that some people decide that evidence is simply not good enough for them whenever they see fit. The light in the sky MUST be a UFO, the moon landing MUST be fake, the towers MUST have been bombed (despite the somewhat bittersweet advent of digital technology giving us dozens of eyewitness camera footage and retrospective engineering analysis on the subject).

    There’s already a fascinating and devestating (and true) conspiracy of religious murderers compelled by god to act against a lazy government and attack its people by using modern technology as weaponry – how much intruige do you really need?

  157. Bitsy Says:

    No matter what temperature steel melts at, rivets melt, or at least soften and deform at a much lower temperature. That’s how they’re used. They’re heated till they can be deformed, pounded into place, and they cool and harden and hold metal girders together. Bet the melting and deforming temperature of rivets is well within the burning temperatures in the towers. Turn the rivets in a building into butter and see what happens. Duh.

    Also, doesn’t coal burn at a lower temperature than steel melts? But it’s used in the refining and casting processes of the metal. The trick is to add lots and lots of oxygen/air in a powerful flow through the burning fuel, which is then transferred to the target material. Smithies have always used bellows to accomplish this. I think they call it a “blast furnace” today, and it can raise the temperature of the target material much higher than the burning temperature of the fuel. Same process is used in kilns to make ceramics. The violently burning fuel in the higher floors sucked air to itself through the many elevator and stairway tubes.

    Plus, I never heard that the girders in the ruins were found to have actually been melted. They were found to have been softened and deformed, hardly a surprise.

  158. Wallace Schwam Says:

    I do not believe that 9/11 was a Bush Administration conspiracy. That said, there is this architech, I think is name is Craig or Cage, that has put out a very interesting DVD suggesting that the buildings were imploded. Has anyone else seen this DVD and do we have equally qualified architechs and engineers who can give an alternative explanation for why the buildings came down as they did?

    I’d like some help in countering demolition theorists.

  159. ref Says:

    To Wallace Schwam.

    Qualified people of NIST, and other qualified people like Dr. Bazant have explained the collapse initiation and progressive collapse. Here are some links to explore. The first two are Bazant papers, next is NIST report, then a couple of conspiracy theory debunking links regarding WTC.

    http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
    http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/00%20WTC%20Collapse%20-%20What%20did%20&%20Did%20Not%20Cause%20It%20-%20Revised%206-22-07.pdf
    http://wtc.nist.gov/reports_october05.htm
    http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc__demolition_.html
    http://www.debunking911.com/
    http://911guide.googlepages.com/wtc

    The person you are talking about is Richard Gage. He is not to be taken seriously. He has not presented one single claim or calculation of his own. He repeats the old and usual claims of other conspiracy theorists. And he has shown he has no understanding of even basic engineering.

  160. Rafe Furst Says:

    One of my favorite quotes is, “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.” That said, I believe that large-scale conspiracies are too hard to keep secret these days and there are always alternative explanations that explain the facts better. The general disconnect has to do with a common but flawed understanding of causality:

    http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2007/02/19/emergent-causality/

    Conspiracy theorists are blind to unintentional acts and multi-actor effects. But skeptics are sometimes unwilling to admit shades of grey, especially where strong incentives cause group bias either in action or inaction.

    Perhaps we should admit to a middle ground, call it “soft conspiracy” or “emergent conspiracy” (a phrase coined by Derek Abbott) to explain situations like 9/11.

  161. peter Says:

    I suppose you could respond that steel melts at 2,777, but it softens at a much lower temperature… fire-proofing in metal frame buildings is only designed to prevent softening for 60-90 minutes, no more etc. etc. etc.

    the important thing that most people who claim the title of skeptic forget is that you must be also skeptical of your own theories. not just everyone else’s. It’s amazing how easily they may find the holes/gaps in your theory, but completely blind to the holes in their own. your holes are gargantuan, their holes are trivial.

    sigh…

  162. hrvoje Says:

    Hi, i’m from Croatia and i know what happened on c2c show on January 22.2006.

    do you?

  163. Thomas J. Theobald Says:

    “Isn’t it more likely that some people in the Bush admin. knew about the impending attacks and sort of “let” them happen?”

    Actually, this is exactly what happened. If you recall, the memo “bin Laden determined to strike at US” floated over the desk of the President a month prior to the attacks.

    However, this doesn’t mean the administration passed over this information for some nefarious purpose – they passed over the information because they just didn’t care. The idea that 9/11 was some kind of “Gulf of Tonkin” episode is just plainly idiotic. Bush was determined to attack Iraq, not Afghanistan. If anything, 9/11 interrupted his plan to launch the Iraq invasion and preempted that action for over a year. There was never a strategic or tactical gain in the outcome of that attack for the administration.

    Allow me to point something out to the “truthers” here: your opinion is not on an equal footing against persons who spent their entire careers studying these subjects – like building demolition. Or terrorism. Oh sure, it’s entirely possible that there might have been a conspiracy, but was it likely? Not in the slightest.

    To have set explosives within one or two floors of where EACH jet was to hit…no, no way.

    To have those explosives SURVIVE the massive destruction and subsequent immolation for over an hour AFTER each jet had hit…no, no way.

    To have nineteen hijackers armed with only boxcutters which were snuck onto the passenger planes be responsible for the hijacking? Huh? If you’ve already been crafty enough to get a professional demolition crew into each tower to plant an appropriate explosive load in exactly the right place when those are some of the busiest office buildings IN THE FREAKING WORLD, don’t you think they could come up with something more effective than some stupid boxcutters? Sneaking a few firearms aboard the planes seems trivial in comparison. Again, major hole in the logic.

    There are dozens of other factors that could be chewed through like this, but I’ll hold up the final question: given the Bush administration’s ability to screw up magnificently on even the smallest deal, please explain for our edification how they could have pulled off such an operation so perfectly, so completely flawlessly, that absolutely no evidence for such a plot has ever been discovered? Where are the whistleblowers? Where are the assassinated employees who’d shown signs of being disgruntled? Where are the cordoned-off ruins being cleaned up by chemical-suited secret agents?

    Next, motivation. What’s the motive here? Who benefits? As I mentioned earlier, no one gained from this. Nobody. Maybe a few contractors who profited from the Afghan action. But that isn’t the Bush admin, their interest was Enron and Iraq.

    To have set aside Occam’s razor and gone with this whole “truther” line of BS is just plainly and simply stupid. You heard me, you truthers are just exercising your stupidity. Furthermore, as has been mentioned numerous times, questions about one explanation do not inherently prove another. Until and unless you can provide some evidence for your suppositions, you’re just another gang of fools to be pigeonholed with the Scientologists, Holocaust deniers, McCarthyists, and Mormons.

    Get over yourselves, and rejoin reality. Barring that, arrange a quick exit for yourselves.

    T

  164. Jared Ihlefield Says:

    The WTC was not built as traditional skyscrapers were built. The outside of the structure bore most of the load. Not having large windows was not an aesthetic choice but a solution to increase space. Also, fire retardant material blown onto all structural steel was not to code. And if you have ever been in that building you would know that no single elevator shaft ran from the lobby to the top of the building. It had three express elevators and you would get off in a certain sector then continue to your final floor on a second if need be, notice how the towers looked as though they were sectioned as you look up, three different sections.
    Did everyone forget how patriotic we all felt that day? And if it were BUSH why did he get re-elected. Even if that were a conspiracy shouldn’t he have lost under a landslide if people really thought that we as a country had done the wrong thing by FINISHING a war that was brought to our soil? No one wanted to enter WWII until Pearl Harbor so should I start to suspect our government had a hand in that?
    Always look at who stands the most to gain. September the eleventh 2001 was the anniversary of G.H.W. Bush’s speech were he first used the term New World Order and I think that scared many wrong doers into action as their would be no place for their scare tactics to exist. If the towers fell when attacked under Clinton’s watch then theories would be much different as to the reason the towers fell. I guess the Clinton’s weren’t smart enough to pull off a fruitful attack on our own country.
    Thank you for giving me a place were I can express my views as people around me seem to think that the United States of America wants them all but dead with everything from seeding clouds to poison in the drinking water. Go live somewhere else and fight for your rights, just please wash your hands of us if you hate it so much. If you can ever say “I told you so” then you will be glad to know the gassed air and deadly water will leave your words floating by on deaf ears.

  165. John Says:

    It’s grossly inaccurate to compare 9/11 Truthers to Holocaust Deniers.

    I have known many who doubt the Bush Administration’s official story who would never deny the Holocaust. I, myself doubt the official story and it’s not because I’m easily led but rather, I’ve heard arguments for and against and I’ve considered both sides. But more importantly, I’ve heard the administration dodge questions, hide in a blanket of secrecy and just plain lie. Why shouldn’t I have a right to doubt them?

    It seems many people are generally more apt to believe that some dictator, somewhere else could commit atrocities, than the possibility that an American leader or leaders would ever do any such thing. Why? Are American’s morally superior to non-American’s? Why would it be impossible to believe that the same could happen here?

  166. Mik Says:

    AT the moment of the attacks I watched in horror along with the world. I love my country and want to see Americans looked at with pride and respect. The results of the Bush Administration and the unknown global powers of the Central banking organizations make for interesting and treasonable bed fellows. As an American I call for the citizens of this great and noble nation to stop watching silly shows and focus on your LIBERTY! Do the honest research as caring Americans about the 911 attacks. This issue will not just vanish because it is important to each and every individual in this country and therefore the World. The number of people questioning this is growing daily and the issue itself rips at the core of faith, morality, trust. This is why we should pursue further investigation into the events before, during and after 911. Don’t tare this nation apart with out confirming the facts fully!

    Mike

  167. All I really needed to know I learned from playing Starcraft « Den of Hydralisks Says:

    [...] without a Truther present in the audience to stand up and press him with uncomfortable questions. When he reported this at his website, Truthers emerged from the four corners of the Internet to argue against [...]

  168. hrvoje Says:

    That’s right, our government loves us. Every day they are doing best they can do to make our lives better. Go back to sleep, big brother is watching over you.

  169. Rich Says:

    Tired games… This man tries to equate “the 9/11 truth movement” (seeking, NOT proclaiming) with anti-semitism…

    (Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn)

    “Conspiracy Theorist” “kook” “Truthers” “kool-aid drinkers” tin foil hat wearers”

    OR

    Psyhcological propaganda technique to discredit a dis-enfranchised public by the very people who dis-enfranchised them…. Anybody defending the official story when the government acts like a monster… welll……

    You be the judge. – ONLY you… DO NOT LET THIS GUY TELL YOU HOW TO THINK! – BE YOUR OWN CHAMPION, BE YOUR OWN LEADER, USE YOUR OWN DISCERNMENT – GO LOOK FOR YOURSELF, LIVE LEARN LOVE – WE ARE CHANGE – DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER.

  170. Lisa Says:

    Here are just some of the people Pam Miller is calling “losers in the game of life.”

    Architects & Engineers
    http://www.ae911truth.org/

    Pilots & Aviation Professionals
    http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html

    Survivors & Family Members
    http://patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html

    Senior Military, Intelligence & Government Officials
    http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
    http://patriotsquestion911.com/

    Professors
    http://patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html

  171. Lisa Says:

    They are REALLY being careful what they will allow to be posted under these comments. They allowed a lot of links to be posted that “debunk” the 9/11 “conspiracy theories,” yet when I tried posting links that give huge lists of architects, engineers, professors, victim’ family members, 9/11 survivors, pilots, and aviation professionals, the post was removed. Perhaps by some chance they’re still “approving” the post, but I said very little. I just stated that these people are what someone above is calling “losers in the game of life.” Were the links somehow threatening to them? Did it give too much credibility to the “conspiracy theorists,” so it had to be removed? That kind of filtering of information has happened a LOT around this issue. I hope you skeptics realize that.

  172. Charles Says:

    Hmmm, I must say, WTC7 certainly did look like a controlled demolition and we have the eyewitness testimony of Barry Jennings who was in the building before either tower collapsed. He states “We made it to the eighth floor. Big explosion. Blew us back into the eighth floor…”. He goes on to testify that he was trapped for the next hour and a half during which time he hears explosions going off throughout the building. While trapped, he’s calling out a window for help but notes that both towers are still standing. I’m certain Shermer will have a good explanation for this, but I’d be more interested in hearing the hard evidence linking Bin Laden to the attacks, since the FBI admits they don’t have any.

  173. Misnomered Says:

    As annoying as these Troofers are, after 9/11, I certainly wondered about disparities between what the 9/11 Commission reported and basic Newtonian and Galilean physics–just recalling physics classes in high school.

    We should study not only the physical evidence but the actions of various governments with as many documents as we can get a hold of. Granted, many of us are rightly skeptical about the “troofers” and how much they really have examined the evidence and on what authority they are basing their judgements.

    Though much of the evidence as to what happened was quickly removed within hours of these tragedies and much closeup filming of the events was confiscated–in addition, none have yet been made available for study by independent scientists, we skeptics would do well to at least examine what evidence has been left for us to examine and draw our own conclusions and test as well we can the claims of the “troofers”. It could well be that there is nothing there to validate their claims of conspiracy. However, I am as skepical of the government as I am of the Troofers.

    On the one hand, why are the people in government dragging their heels so long in producing hard evidence of what happened. Why don’t they present the actual physical artifacts for independent forensic scientists to study–just like they do in all other airline crashes and building disasters?

    On the other hand, what hard evidence do the “Troofers” have to back up their allegations of conspiracy between the U.S. government and international bankers, corporations, etc.?

    With you, I am skeptical about knee-jerk reactionary rhetoric about “conspiracy”. But with the “Troofers”, I believe the U.S. citizenry deserve to have some basic, common-sense questions answered, preferably by an independent group of scientists with no obligations to anyone and no axe to grind.

  174. Moranen Says:

    I explain the “No holes, no ‘Holocaust'”. According to structural engineering there definetely had to have been the 4 alleged square holes in the roof of Krematorium II morgue 1, if the ‘gassings’ had happened there as claimed. There are no holes. Therefore according to structural engineering the alleged gassings could not have happened as claimed. In addition there is no Zyklon B residue; gassings did not happen there.

    There is a hierarhy of evidence: material evidence, and documentary evidence always will refute witness testimony. Eyewitnesses are the most unreliable form of evidence. There is no other evidence about the alleged ‘gassings’ than witness claims. Chemistry and engineering have refuted witnesses. Gassings did not happen in Krema II. Therefore, because gassings did not happen in Krema II, they did not happen in Krema III either, because it was a mirror image, and the same witnesses who had lied about Krema II similarly lied about Krema III. Therefore, at least 750,000 “gassing victims” have to be reduced. And because the gassings were a lie in Krema II & III, they too were a lie in other places in Auschwitz. The same witnesses claimed ‘gassings’ for the other places.

    Gassings in Auschwitz did not happen. And because they did not happen in Auschwitz, it’s just stupid to believe that they happened in Aktion Reinhard, using diesel or gasoline gases. (Google: Dissecting the Holocaust.)

  175. Moranen Says:

    In addition, those who claim that there are holes are simply claiming that irregular rubble and irregular holes made after the war are the alleged ‘Zyklon B holes’. The Krema II morgue 1 roof is at least 1/3 intact, so there definetely should be at least 1 or 2 square holes. There are no square holes. And no Zyklon B residues. I spent in Auschwitz 4 days.

  176. CDG Says:

    I can’t believe that Skeptics are engaging in logical fallacies regarding 9/11.

    Always amazed me. Skeptics who are allegedly for truth.. and the right to question.. yet.. they believe, hook line and sinker an “official” report from the U.S. Govt.

    and insinuate condescendingly that those who speak out.. are “wackos” or ooooh “CONSPIRACY theorists” or even worse.. “HOLOCAUST Deniers”.. effective use of a logical Fallacy.. disarm your opponent with accusations…

    I suggest that folks investigate Jan Irvin’s Gnostic Media website and Mark Passio’s What on Earth is Happening. Jan Irvin has been discussing in detail the TRIVIUM and QUADRIVIUM as well as Critical thinking skills.

    Peace

  177. hicusdicus Says:

    The 911 conspiracy theories are just more positive truth that human intelligence is the most over rated commodity on this planet. Don’t forget that we never did land on the moon, it was all just a government spoof. Where is that big asteroid strike when we need one? It would give intelligence a chance for a come back.

  178. Skeptic Griggsy Says:

    CDG and the other nuts, why don’t you take off your blinders and actually study what real experts maintain? Oh, that would upself you!
    We hope that bystanders who are not that caught up in being so nutty or not at all nutty will accept the truth.
    Skeptics should never lie about claims, distort facts, quote wrongly and deny the evidence as those fools do.
    This skeptic finds those fools love to let others deride them so they can feel better! Why do they have so law self-esteem?

  179. Cory Withers Says:

    To all of you who consider yourselves skeptics, would you consider Daniel Ellsberg a crazy conspiracy theorist? Do your baseless psychological evaluations apply to him as well?

    While we’re all appealing to various authorities in this debate, I’m gonna put a bit more faith in Ellsberg’s ability to tell the difference between a conspiracy a “crazy conspiracy theory” over Michael Shermer’s (no matter how much I respect him on other topics).

    http://binarystreams.areavoices.com/2011/12/10/a-letter-to-an-atheist-community/

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