9/11 “Truthers” Harass Shermer on Book Tour
The latest mother of all conspiracy theories — that 9/11 was an inside job by the Bush administration — finds its members following Michael Shermer around on his book tour.
Ever since Skeptic magazine published an investigative article on the 9/11 “Truth Movement” and analyzed their claims, which were found wanting, I have been hounded by the so-called 9/11 “truthers” because I am the editor of the magazine and therefore am suppose to be a “skeptic” of the official explanation for 9/11.
In fact, throughout January I have been on a book tour for The Mind of the Market, my book on behavioral economics and evolutionary economics, and at every event during the Q & A one of these “truthers” pretends to ask a question about economics but then quickly shifts to a rant about what “really happened” on September 11, 2001.
At my appearance at Powell’s bookstore in Portland, Oregon (January 21), for example, someone with a video camera captured the rambling screed and posted it on YouTube the same night:
For my appearance in Seattle (January 23), my webmeister, Emrys Miller, came prepared with a video camera just in case the “troofers” showed up. Sure enough, one did:
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There was no need for a camera in Philadelphia (January 15), as the 9/11 conspiratorialists came prepared with their own recording equipment, and captured the moment here:
What’s going on here? As Bill Maher discovered one day during the taping of his HBO series “Real Time,” their goal is just to be heard — in any venue at any time under any circumstances. In spring of 2005, for example, I gave a lecture at the Los Angeles Public Library, after which I was buttonholed by a documentary filmmaker with Michael Moore-ish ambitions of exposing the “truth” about the 9/11 conspiracy, and he wanted to know if he could interview me. I responded, “you mean the conspiracy by Osama bin Laden and his nineteen Al-Qaeda operatives to fly planes into buildings?”
“That’s what they want you to believe,” he said.
“Who is ‘they’,” I queried.
“The government,” he whispered in hushed tones, as if “they” might actually be listening in at that very moment.
“Yeah, well, ‘the government’ is a little vague for me,” I suggested. “Who in the government wants me to believe that Al-Qaeda did it?”
“The Bush administration,” was the by now predictable answer.
“But didn’t Osama and some members of Al-Qaeda not only say they did it,” I reminded him, “they gloated about what a glorious triumph it was over America and western capitalism, materialism, and secularism?”
“Oh, you’re talking about that video of Osama,” he exclaimed knowingly. “That was faked by the C.I.A. and leaked to the American press to mislead us. There has been a disinformation campaign going on ever since 9/11.”
“How do you know?” I inquired.
“Because of all the unexplained anomalies surrounding 9/11,” he answered.
“Such as?”
“Such as the fact that steel melts at a temperature of 2,777 degrees Fahrenheit, but jet fuel burns at only 1,517 degrees Fahrenheit. No melted steel, no collapsed towers.”
At this point I ended the conversation and declined to be interviewed, knowing precisely where the dialogue was going next — if I cannot explain every single minutia about the events of that fateful 11th day in September, 2001, that lack of knowledge, in his mind at least, equates to direct proof that 9/11 was orchestrated by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the CIA in order to implement their plan for global domination and a New World Order, to be financed by G.O.D. (Gold, Oil, Drugs) and launched by a Pearl Harbor-like attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, thereby providing the justification for war. The evidence is there in the details, he explained, handing me faux dollar bill (“9-11” replacing the “1” and Bush supplanting Washington) choc-a-block full of web sites. Where have I heard all this before?
In the early 1990s I launched a full-scale investigation of the Holocaust deniers, initially as the cover story for Skeptic magazine and subsequently expanded into a book length treatment, Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say it? The deniers employ this tactic of anomalies-as-proof to great effect. David Irving, for example, claims that there are no holes in the roof of the gas chamber at Krema 2 at Auschwitz-Birkenau. So what? So plenty, he says. No holes in the roof of the gas chamber at Krema 2 means that the eyewitness account of SS guards climbing up on the roof and pouring Zyklon-B gas pellets through the holes and into the gas chamber below where the prisoners were herded into, means that the eyewitness account is wrong, which means that no one was gassed in Krema 2, which means that no one was gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau, which means that no one was gassed at any prison camp, which means that no Jews anywhere were systematically exterminated by the Nazis. In short, “no holes, no Holocaust,” says David Irving, a slogan emblazoned on t-shirts of his supporters at his London trial in which he sued a historian for calling him a Holocaust denier.
No holes, no Holocaust. No melted steel, no Al-Qaeda attack. The parallels are equal, and equally flawed. And just as I never imagined that Holocaust denial would wend its way into the mainstream press (Irving’s trial was front page news for months), after my above conversation with the filmmaker I never imagined that 9/11 denial would get media legs. But now it has legs for days, and so we have been forced to provide a public response. To read our complete analysis of the claims of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, read eSkeptic from September 11th, 2006.
9/11, book tour, Truthers
January 24th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Empty vessels make most sound
January 24th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Some people will just keep on believing what they believe despite all the evidence to the contrary. It’s very sad and makes it harder for the “real” conspiracies to be exposed!!!! Sorry, couldn’t resist
January 25th, 2008 at 8:13 am
I note that the title says “Truthers” , which is plural. Yet this video shows only one individual who seems to be causing a problem. Is Shermer really being “harassed” at every venue, or are people just asking questions?
The childish name-calling in the video doesn’t help matters. Wow, someone wore a sweatshirt he didn’t like. How awful!
January 25th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Someone piped up at the Seattle reading too.
January 25th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
“I note that the title says “Truthers” , which is plural. Yet this video shows only one individual who seems to be causing a problem.”
Plus the person with the video camera. That makes at least two. If you think these people are just asking innocent questions then you are lucky enough to have not met truthers. They do very often harass and most I have met seem to consider anyone who doesn’t support their views as “uncritical, government lacky’s” etc. I have never met a single truther who could accept that anyone else could have looked at the evidence and the total lack of evidence supporting the truthers and come to opposite conclusion that they have.
January 27th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Bill Mahrer says debunking the notion of a 9-11 conspiracy is the only instance in which he ever supports George Bush, and I would go along with that.
January 28th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
The truth is that when you go to these events, oftentimes the people attending ask softball questions that are essentially springboards for self-congratulation. It’s a sad day when people start ridiculing and scoffing at people asking tough questions. Shermer’s answers were pathetic and display how ill informed he actually is.
January 29th, 2008 at 8:22 am
As some point, these people just need to be told, “shut up and sit down.” The only necessary response is, “read Skeptic Magazine Vol 12 No 4 for my response. Next question.”
January 30th, 2008 at 12:06 am
Honestly, I don’t know about Kennedy, or 911.
With Kennedy I heard some sophisticated echo location analysis that discerned two locations where loud gunshots were fired in Dealy Plaza, one from the fence on top of the Grassy Knoll. Then someone says it’s wrong. Marksmen say if they had to set up an ambush that would be the place, and to make sure you need crossfire.
With 911, there are a lot of peculiarities, but the as Shermer says the hidden evidence does not prove demolition explosives, but the government’s reluctance to release data and the strange behavior of the government after 911, the anthrax, and invasion of Iraq are not rational responses.
No one person can prove this so Shermer’s criterion for evidence is really not in play, it is more like his analogy of one person refusing to fairly share $100 with another person and the person refusing because he does not want to be taken for a chump. There are a lot of chump indications, or questions in 911, more and more historic lies being released like the Gulf Of Tonkin.
It does seem odd that those building fell so fast and perfectly, and that the place was cleaned up and 100% of the scrap was off to China with no investigation. A lot of the 911 Truth movement is off the wall, but who knows who says what and why, all we know is that there is a lot of evidence and proof missing, and a lot of weird things going on in the government.
January 30th, 2008 at 12:59 am
I find this tack not only dopey but soul sick.
Yikes.
DW@SF
January 30th, 2008 at 1:47 am
I think the problem is that the current 9/11 conspiracy theories are way off the mark (bombs in the buildings etc.) Isn’t it more likely that some people in the Bush admin. knew about the impending attacks and sort of “let” them happen?
January 30th, 2008 at 2:02 am
I was at the Powells event. These people would not shut up, and they did not have a question. They need to understand that freedom of speech does mean that I have to listen to them!! And they essentially forced everyone there to listen to them, for a few minutes anyhow.
I wonder how they would react if someone pretended to agree that it was a conspiracy, but thought space aliens were behind it … the lizard-headed ones. “Do you have any evidence it was the Bush administration and not lizard-headed space aliens?”
If anyone tries this please let me know how it works out for you.
January 30th, 2008 at 2:25 am
Shermer and Maher wouldn’t happen to be a couple of rummies who’s strings are pulled, at least in part, by the likes of AIPAC and Abe Foxman …. would they? Why did Shermer need to use the Holocaust analogy? I’ll tell you why, because certain techniques are effective in stifling debate. You know … call someone a “racist”, an “anti-Semite”, a “conspiracist” in an attempt to end legitimate discussion. Here, Shermer uses “conspiratorialist”, like that really adds to the effect. To state that our own (U.S.) government would NOT entertain the idea of attacking its own citizens is a load of manure. One needn’t go any further than Googling “Operation Northwoods” to put that notion to rest. I want to hear what Shermer or Maher have to say about Operation Northwoods (1962), and then … because I’m sure they’ve got some great one word answers (like “truthers”) … ask Shermer and Maher to explain the 1967 USS Liberty incident. Everything Shermer and Maher say has to take into serious consideration what side of their bread needs buttering, and who’s controlling the butter. Shermer’s words are only that … words. Quite often they’re without substance, fact or reality. If there’s something to be skeptical of … it’s him.
Come on, Shermer … tell me about the conspiracy of Operation Northwoods! Before the truth about it was declassified, there we had “truthers” and “conspiratorialists”.
PS: I realize “conspiratorialist” is a word, but it sure seems like you pulled it out of your (GWB) signed copy of “Bushisms”.
January 30th, 2008 at 2:52 am
*sigh*
As Phil said above, “read Skeptic Magazine Vol 12 No 4″ and then come back to the discussion.
Not so you can dogmatically follow the Skeptic Mag / Shermer party line, but so that you’ve read the actual science and engineering reconstructions of the entire events.
Please. Reason and rationality are awesome, come back to the good side of your brains.
January 30th, 2008 at 2:54 am
I went out and Googled Operation Northwoods, and checked the resulting Wikipedia article. The plot was, my opinion, the result of brainstorming in a series of meetings. In such meetings, every idea that arises is considered as equally valid until every available idea is aired. When everyone has spoken the ideas are discussed, and the impractical or impossible ideas are discarded. Usually classified notes are taken. Then members of the group separate and discuss the set of ideas further. More classified memos and notes. Finally, the group leader or CEO or President or Department Head makes a decision to try the best idea or to discard them all as unworkable. Conspiracy buffs need to get out more.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:59 am
whatever you call it skepticism or belief, nothing can be proven about 911 … so people fill the void with what they feel - intuit - about the government … this intuitive “wisdom” can be spectacularly right or wrong, and you cannot blame the 911 people for what they think, but they ought not let it push them overboard.
my question to them always is, what do you want to do about it? so???? I don’t hear answers from them because there is nothing they can do and that makes them even angrier and more paranoid, but it also does not mean they are not right about part of what they think, but it doesn’t prove anything.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:48 am
Mr. John P. Jones,
You complain about a Holocaust analogy but completely miss that the analogy has to do with DENIAL. Denial is denial is denial whether it is denying the Holocaust, denying than man landed on the Moon, denying that the Earth is round, or denying the extraordinary massive evidence from thousands of independent sources (none of which originated with, or is controlled, by the “government”) that all converge on the solid conclusion, never refuted by you “Truthers” that Arab hijackers were responsible for the attacks of 9/11.
You should sit down and start to use your critical faculties about this rather than just believe what a relatively few people want you to believe. The 9/11 “Truth” Movement is, always has been, and always will be, the 9/11 Denial Movement. Use your own brain to find out why.
January 30th, 2008 at 4:52 am
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”- George Orwell
Can’t we agree on a few things ?
Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis
Isn’t a healthy questioning of what appears to be reality at the base of any scientific quest ?
Now, it was just made public that the Bush/Cheney administration has lied close to a 1000 times to achieve their goals. Woudn’t it be normal to, at least, marginally doubt a little what they’ve been saying about 9-11 ?
While I have all the admiration in the world for a healthy skeptic, I find it hard to believe that all these, obviously hard working citizen, are all stupid douche bags… http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/ and these too… http://stj911.org/index.html
While on the other hand, 90 something % of American believe in an invisible giant in the sky who you turn to when you’re about to die… so go figure
My first double take about 9-11 happened when they said, a few hours after the event, that the passport of one of the highjacker was found lying on the street… I just went hummm… how quaint
Same thing happened when I saw JFK’s head yack to the back when the fatal shot hit him… last time I checked, the laws of gravity also apply in Texas
So, I feel both sides still have a lot of explaining and searching to do… The mystery, rapped into an enigma syndrome is here to stay. Meanwhile a devastating war is going on… and that’s the fact jack
How about a campaign against the five curses of humanity : war, poverty, environmental destruction, ignorance and disease. Now that would yield better results for everyone but the industrial/military/media complex.
” He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable an ignorable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.” - Albert Einstein
January 30th, 2008 at 5:37 am
John P. Jones and other “truthers” conveniently forget that 9/11 was the second attack on the World Trade Centre. The first was the truck bomb of 1993, for which Al-Qaeda operative Ramzi Youssef is currently serving a life sentence.
Since Al-Qaeda had tried, and failed, to bring the towers down in 1993, why is it do hard for Jones to imagine that they might try again, with greater success, in 2001 ? Or does he imagine that the 1993 bomb was “an inside job” too ?
Then we have the deadly Al-Qaeda attacks on the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Were they too all part of a fiendish conspiracy in the White House ?
The 9/11 attacks were horrific acts of mass murder - but they were also bold, imaginative, and carefully prepared, attributes which are notably absent from the usual behaviour of the Bush administration.
To accept the “truthers” propositions we have to imagine, not only that the Bush administration is supremely competent (because only exceptionally competent people can devise and carry out such a complex operation), but also that it is fearless.
For the reason government officials might baulk at flying planes into skyscrapers is not just that they might have moral objections to killing thousands of Americans on American soil. They might also be afraid of getting caught.
Many members of Congress wanted to impeach Clinton over a blow job, so what would they have done if faced with evidence that Bush or Cheney had authorised a massacre in the centre of New York ? Would the notoriously cowardly George Bush really have risked impeachment, a treason trial and quite possibly the death sentence, merely to manufacture an excuse for going to war against Afghanistan ?
January 30th, 2008 at 6:03 am
I’d really like to see a whole article on the human tendency to believe conspiracy theories. There seems to be a certain percentage of people who are just wired this way, such that it really doesn’t matter which conspiracy we’re talking about… they’re all true and they’re almost all related.
It seems to me that for many of these people, the idea that there is some powerful group of people behind these terrible actions, deceiving us and hiding the truth, just resonates. The fact that it’s true is just immediately obvious to them, on an emotional level. Then they proceed to collect a bunch of evidence to support the conclusion that they’ve already drawn, and evidence countering anything that could disprove it, feeding off each other’s belief the whole time. When they present this so-called evidence, it makes the rest of us feel that their conclusions might be based on rational thinking, and could therefore be countered with rational counter-explanations. But in fact, the conclusions are pre-determined, so it’s impossible to open a real dialog.
So, what is it about the human psyche that causes people who are rational enough to live their daily lives to also be swayed so far from rationality in certain circumstances? I found it fascinating that the guy in one of the videos describes himself as a skeptic. I suspect that he doesn’t really understand what that means, but a great future article would be “Conspiracy Theories: Skepticality Gone Wrong”.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:11 am
The CBC documentary, “The Secret History of 9/11″, is a fascinating time-line approach to who knew what and when prior to the attacks. The title might grab a few “troofers”, or people who have doubts, but the whole presentation is based on interviews and well-documented information suggesting that Al Qaeda was responsible, and the US just blew it on so many levels in dealing with the threat.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:15 am
I see no mention (yet) of the January 25th event at Books Inc. in Mountain View California, but there was a “truther” there as well. But he didn’t even pretend to be asking a question about economics.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:20 am
What I’ve noticed when I argue with 9/11 conspiracy theorists is the following logical flaw:
The government’s report is not 100% accurate, therefore there MUST be a conspiracy.
Or, they posit, if every t is not crossed and every i is not dotted, CLEARLY there’s a conspiracy.
It makes me think of the joke: The lack of evidence is the surest sign the conspiracy is working.
Or, similarly, they believe that *because* they can come up with A STORY to explain events with, that proves the story is true… no different from Intelligent Design supporters who use the same logic.
Perhaps the REAL problem is that this country has no history of genuine debate. You can’t say to a conspiracy theorist, “But that’s a straw man argument,” and have them understand what you mean, let alone pause and say, “Oh, you’re right.” Without being able to discuss the argument itself, all discussions devolve into a bad episode of Jerry Springer.
January 30th, 2008 at 7:55 am
It seems to me that the 9/11 truth conspiracy is different because of it’s magnitude and becuase of the efficiency of the internet to carry and spread memes. Not only the numerous websites, but more mainstream sites like youtube and wiki that introduce the idea to more people than would have been exposed in advance. Mind viruses spread because they are good at spreading and it doesn’t reflect on their relevant “truthiness”.
I admit I haven’t read all of the arguments involved and was myself intially skeptical of circumstances involved in 9/11, but the payoff for the government doing something like that doesn’t seem to gain anything. If it was the war, well they can really go to war with whoever they like on thinner pretenses couldn’t they? WMDs anyone?
I expect this to be a bigger problem in the future. I agree with the previous poster. What are the truthers going to do about it besides harass people who disagree and disrupt book tours and live television?
January 30th, 2008 at 7:55 am
It has always been interesting to me that peope who find conspiracies say that the “government” or whoever is behind the conspiracy is so smart that this secret was hatched and executed and no one was ever able to find it out in advance to stop it. Yet, at the same time, those responsible were no careless that someone who has no inside knowledge or connection is able to find out about it. I guess it’s like eating your cake and having it, too. Both can’t be true.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:14 am
Rudy wanted to become president, so he staged 9/11 to get the worlds attention. He even turned down money from the Saudi’s who wanted to clean up their image. It’s as plain as the nose on M. Jackson’s face, or was that the Sphinx?
January 30th, 2008 at 8:18 am
One has to wonder whether the reference to a “T-shit” worn by a Holocaust denier is a Freudian slip?
January 30th, 2008 at 8:24 am
I think it’s time to start fighting fire with fire. Here’s my counter-conspiracy argument:
9/11 was indeed a conspiracy… of little green aliens from the planet Memron. They seek to take over the Earth, but there are currently too few of them for an outright military victory. So they launched the 9/11 attack to destabilize world governments in preparation for an eventual invasion.
Osama bin Laden and all participants in the hijackings (and/or missile attack, depending how far gone you are) are memronians in human form. So is everyone who “let it happen.”
But when the memronians found that the plan was not entirely effective, they inhabited the bodies of net-savvy citizens worldwide in order to propagate the idea of a US government conspiracy, with the goal further destabilizing the most powerful military on the planet.
“That’s right ‘truther’… YOU are an alien! You’re being controlled, perhaps even without your knowledge, in an attempt to prepare the planet for a complete alien takeover! Prove that it’s false. Can’t? OK book club… get him!”
January 30th, 2008 at 8:38 am
“Isn’t it more likely that some people in the Bush admin. knew about the impending attacks and sort of “let” them happen?”
No.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:38 am
I have a “theory” about the 9/11 Truthers and other conspiracy theorists. I suspect that if you look at them closely you’ll find a common thread. They’re all sad losers in the game of life. People whose actual accomplishments have fallen far short of their own belief in their abilities. Except for a few dynamic and enterprising “prophets” who gather a following of these losers and make a good living doing so, they are for the most part well below average in documented accomplishments. They’re all going to disappear when they die without leaving the slightest trace on the world except a little documentation showing their birth, marriage, death, and driving records.
They can’t admit it, of course, but they are driven by a sick need to feel important that is stymied by the fact that they’re so irrational, unpalatable and weak-minded personally that they couldn’t even get elected to the local animal control board.
So they latch onto something that makes them feel important and they fantasize that they’re going to be hunted by some shadowy government force that might somehow do them in to shut them up. They gather together and tell each other ghost stories to get themselves all shivery and excited. They publically harass people who have actually accomplished something to make themselves feel strong, potent and dangerous, when the truth is that they are nothing of the sort. It’s like an adrenaline addiction, a stimulating drug they can create internally.
No government conspiracy actually exists and they’re in no danger from any shadowy conspirators, but they get a tremendous thrill from believing it and imagining that someone might be after them and that they might be performing a tremendous public service that the world will thank them for later. For them, it’s just safe fun to worry and fuss and engender panic and fear wherever they go.
They repeat uncorroborated gossipy information and rumors about their topic and claim that it’s being “suppressed” when it’s actually just being reasonably ignored because it’s wrong, distorted, or blatently spurious. They rabidly yap about it endlessly on the topic to their family and acquintances and rudely dominate the conversations they have with normal people who are too polite to tell them to buzz off.
It’s been going on for millennia. People crawl out of the woodwork with conspiracy theories every time there’s a dramatic and distressing public event. It’s predictable, but also boring and depressing to see people being so stupid without having the slightest awareness that they’re acting like idiots.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Dr. Shermer:
I can sympathize with your not wanting to be associated with “conspiracy theorists” who have woefully insufficient factual basis for their flakey theories. But not all conspiracy theories are baseless. Especially ones in past societies dominated by a totalitarian (or monarchical) regime.
I’d like to invite you to explore “the Shakespeare authorship question” by reading a bit from my website (it’s a bit out of date) and .pdf versions of my two self-published books entitled “The Dark Side of Shakespeare.” The .pdf for Vol. I is at http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595247776&page=1, and Vol. II at http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595293905&page=1.
The first step in this “conspiracy theory” is to acknowledge that what we know about the incumbent candidate for the author of the works attributed to “William Shake-speare” [deliberate hyphen] is essentially inconsistent with his having authored anything at all (i.e., in an age where men and women were predominately unlettered and should be presumed illiterate until proven otherwise, the man from Stratford-upon-Avon seems have been illiterate!). The second step is to evaluate which of the many more-appropriate candidates best had the travels, education, experiences, etc. depicted in the works.
That’s why the “Oxfordian” theory (that Shakespeare’s works were originated by the 17th Earl of Oxford, Edward DeVere) has the strongest case in its favor (although its one serious weakness is that Oxford died in 1604, meaning that many of the works were “originated” before his death, but were first performed or published only after his death; which by the way is a detraction from the orthodox candidate having died in 1616, 7 years before half of the plays first were published!). The key information in favor of Oxford was that he, and only he among realistic candidates, visited Milan, Florence, and Sicily, among other places that Shakespeare’s plays most vividly depicted in the foreign locales that about half the plays were set in. In some plays, it’s hard to dismiss the fact that the author “had to have traveled to” the locales involved in order to depict specific information about towers, bridges, acoustics, hidden or secret entrances, etc. I’ve even summarized this argument with, “Whoever Shakespeare really was, he appears to have traveled in Oxford’s itinerary, possibly in Oxford’s hip pocket!”
After glancing through my material, on my webpage are a few links to other sources you can examine. I suggest that if you assign one of your staff to do a bit of research into “the Shakespeare authorship question,” you could do quite a few solid articles to dismiss the bunk which orthodox Stratfordian scholars have been propounding, even if you don’t particularly agree with my Oxfordian slant (i.e., one recently-propouded alternative candidate has been Sir Fulke Greville, Lord Brooke, a friend and biographer of Sir Philip Sidney, who held estates near and the post of Recorder of Stratford-upon-Avon, and whose own plays and sonnets were principally published only after his death in 1628).
Regards, and keep up the good “Skeptics” work!
January 30th, 2008 at 9:02 am
the theories about 911 and religion have a lot in common, great leaps of faith.
whatever you want to believe about 911 does not matter but watching bldg 7 collapse destroys the suspension of disbelief. iv have heard everyones, skeptics included “idea” about the collapse, sorry people it was a controlled demolition collapse. it is one thing to speculate about all the details in regard to 911 but the collapse of bldg 7 is what it is.
January 30th, 2008 at 9:06 am
For Michael Shermer to say that, “But didn’t Osama and some members of Al-Qaeda not only say they did it” is really ridiculous. Would we trust Charles Manson to tell the truth? His REASONING is quite lacking. On the one hand, Bin Laden is this evil terrorist who is crafty and wicked, will pull any trick to get what he wants, yet we are supposed to take him at his word. This is just plain ridiculous reasoning. Also, it is ridiculous for Shermer to dismiss the possibility that our government could carry out a false flag black op, because nearly all governments, if not all, throughout history, including the USA, have staged events to get us into war. That´s just a common stardard technique, and to think otherwise is just naive. So it´s curious and strange — again poor reasoning — that Shermer did not at least bring up this possibility. Now, about whether the Twin Towers came down by controlled demolition or not, that is really irrelevant. Why? They came down. Period. Arguing over why they came down is too much of a distraction from the need to put Bush & Company in prison for international war crimes. That´s what we should be focusing on. I personally feel they let 911 happen. Maybe they were involved in letting it happen — the Bin Laden family and the Bush family have long been business associates, which is another thing Shermer avoids — because they were talking about invading Iraq from DAY ONE (this according to O´Neill and others). Either Bush and Cheney and Rove and all these mafia goons are complete incompetent idiots, or they let 911 happen to serve their goals. Given how they have been behaving, lying and lying and lying and committing one war crime after another, it is an EASY reasoning jump to say they let 911 happen because it´s in the same vein of ickyness. So let´s stop arguing about how the Twin Towers came down, it´s just too big of a distraction. What IS abundantly clear is that they have committed international war crimes and they very likely let 911 happen. Remember “divide and conquer”? Well, if we get distracted by proving 911 an inside job and we don´t focus enough on putting these goons in prison, they have definitely succeeded, once again, with this technique.
January 30th, 2008 at 9:07 am
HOW ABOUT SOME BALANCED THINKING? SOME GOOD REASONING?
(THIS REFERS TO BOTH “TRUTHERS” AND MICHAEL SHERMER)
For Michael Shermer to say that, “But didn’t Osama and some members of Al-Qaeda not only say they did it” is really ridiculous. Would we trust Charles Manson to tell the truth? His REASONING is quite lacking. On the one hand, Bin Laden is this evil terrorist who is crafty and wicked, will pull any trick to get what he wants, yet we are supposed to take him at his word. This is just plain ridiculous reasoning. Also, it is ridiculous for Shermer to dismiss the possibility that our government could carry out a false flag black op, because nearly all governments, if not all, throughout history, including the USA, have staged events to get us into war. That´s just a common stardard technique, and to think otherwise is just naive. So it´s curious and strange — again poor reasoning — that Shermer did not at least bring up this possibility. Now, about whether the Twin Towers came down by controlled demolition or not, that is really irrelevant. Why? They came down. Period. Arguing over why they came down is too much of a distraction from the need to put Bush & Company in prison for international war crimes. That´s what we should be focusing on. I personally feel they let 911 happen. Maybe they were involved in letting it happen — the Bin Laden family and the Bush family have long been business associates, which is another thing Shermer avoids — because they were talking about invading Iraq from DAY ONE (this according to O´Neill and others). Either Bush and Cheney and Rove and all these mafia goons are complete incompetent idiots, or they let 911 happen to serve their goals. Given how they have been behaving, lying and lying and lying and committing one war crime after another, it is an EASY reasoning jump to say they let 911 happen because it´s in the same vein of ickyness. So let´s stop arguing about how the Twin Towers came down, it´s just too big of a distraction. What IS abundantly clear is that they have committed international war crimes and they very likely let 911 happen. Remember “divide and conquer”? Well, if we get distracted by proving 911 an inside job and we don´t focus enough on putting these goons in prison, they have definitely succeeded, once again, with this technique.
January 30th, 2008 at 9:47 am
The credo of the conspiracy theorist is, “nothing bad ever happens by accident.”
What the conspiracy theorist cannot accept is that terrible, evil things happen to innocent people, unpreventably, through no fault of their own. They believe that if we could stop conspiracies, then many bad things — wars, terror, killings — would not happen.
In some ways this is an idealistic world view, idealistic but flawed. In real life Occam prevails.
By the way, Bill Bryson demolishes the shakespeare
January 30th, 2008 at 9:54 am
By the way, Bill Bryson demolishes the Shakespeare story that anyone other than William Shakespeare did the work. See “Shakespeare, The World As Stage”
January 30th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Maybe, maybe not.
One thing not adequately considered, IMHO, is that strange coincidences do happen.
It is entirely possible that the Bush White House knew the airplane attack was coming, but we’ll never know. The point is, there could easily be more than one ‘conspiracy’.
An example of strange coincidences is the battle between the Gestapo and the Red Orchestra, a chain of Soviet spy-cells that operated across Europe. Due to stupidity at Moscow Center, the German AD became aware that the head cell of the RO was in Paris.
So, the Gestapo took over a half-floor of a Paris office building, and set to work. Across the hall, occupying the other half of the floor, was a rainwear import-export company, Simexco. For almost a year, the Simexco executives would exchange morning greetings with the Gestapo. One Monday morning, the Germans arrived to find the Simexco offices empty. 24 hours later, they found that the RO cell they were after had been right across the hall!
January 30th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Peter,
yes, the government stages false flag operations… and we tend to know about them really quick and unequivocally (Gulf of Tonkin, USS Maine). They only need to be kept secret for a few weeks, as a rule, and then nobody cares anymore. And, they tend to involve very, very few people - mostly military, and they generally do not affect civilians. For obvious reasons - since it would be much harder to keep that kind of thing quiet.
The ONLY thing that one could plausibly argue is thet 9/11 was a welcome opportunity to do what was wanted long before (remodel the Mid-East). If it had been an inside job, why not pin it on Hussein right away? Why on Osama and go to Afghanistan(!) first? Makes no sense.
Pearl Harbour is another case where it is plausible to argue that the government might have intentionally let things happen to get into the war, but would you argue the US government had LAUNCHED
January 30th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Oshkosh John wrote:
“I went out and Googled Operation Northwoods, and checked the resulting Wikipedia article. The plot was, my opinion, the result of brainstorming in a series of meetings.”
Further, Operation Northwoods, ill-conceived as it was, didn’t even propose the harming of any citizens. Its purpose was to fake damage, not to really carry it out. I don’t see how the fact that A did not do B, would support the idea that C did D.
January 30th, 2008 at 11:56 am
“No holes, no Holocost” reminds me of another famous anomalies-as-proof argument. It starts with “If the glove doesn’t fit…”
Thanks for the article, Michael. Some “troofers” are operating on the supposition that if they can convince one or two high profile skeptics, then their theories will be validated, or at least sanctified. This seems to fit, hand in glove, with the notion that the actual truth is not as important as what others can be persuaded to believe.
Given the stupendous ignorance, obstinate logical errors, and willful factual omissions of these 9/11 tall tales, one has to wonder if there is any point in logical refutation. Throughout history, logic has too often played the part of imagination’s ugly sister.
Captivated by dramatic stories of false flag attacks, factions within factions, and high-tech wizardry, the 9/11 buffs simply opt out of the relatively pedestrian possibility that 19 guys, with nothing but boxcutters, cold resolve, and a diabolically brilliant idea, perpetrated perhaps the most spectacular crime in history, against the most powerful nation in history. In my own experience, I have found that it seldom pays to argue. At best I come off as the buzzkill in the cheap seats who exposes the magician’s trick
It is wounded national pride that drives these theories, rising from a deep seated shame that our vulnerabilities could be so easily exposed. To those who found themselves shell-shocked by the sight of the gaping hole where the twin symbols of American might once stood, it is a saving grace to believe that an all-powerful secret government cabal executed the attack of 9/11 as part of a broader plan to maintain US military and economic hegemony in the world. To those whose nationalism spills over into narcissism, it is decidedly more comforting to be the subjects of skillful, albeit heartless and self-serving masterminds, than it is to be caught phoning it in by a handful of seriously pissed-off, but otherwise ordinary fanatics.
Despite my own sense of shame that some of my most intelligent friends drink the conspiracy kool-aid, I console myself with the thought that all of this is, for many of them, a natural phase of denial that will gradually give way to acceptance. One can only hope that this phase is over soon, because there are plenty of real conspiracies out there, more urgent, and more deserving of America’s better minds.
January 30th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
[…] Nobody understands the phenomenon of delusional thinking perhaps better than Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic Magazine and author of numerous books including Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time. As of this writing, Shermer is on a book tour promoting his new book, The Mind of the Market: Compassionate Apes, Competitive Humans, and Other Tales from Evolutionary Economics(a review on this blog is forthcoming). At many of his stops, he began noticing faux questions being asked by what are, in fact, 9/11 conspiracy theorists attending to espouse their ideas and, essentially, disrupt Shermer’s talks. Shermer writes about, and documents with video, truther harassment here. […]
January 30th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
I like to consider myself a rational and skeptical thinker and there is just too much in the “official” government story of 9-11 that demands a great deal of skepticism. The fact that all FAA protocol regarding crash investigation was disregarded is a huge red flag; without a proper investigation of the physical evidence there is no way to verify (or disprove) the government line. If nothing else, all of the inconsistencies, holes, and conflicting eyewitness reports warrant an independant investigation (although, with all evidence having been disappeared, such an investigation would be limited from the start.)
If it walks like a highly-engineered controlled demolition, and quacks like a highly-engineered controlled demolition…and we should not forget that the Gulf of Tonkin incident, among others, was a so-called “false flag” operation staged by our own government as a way to escalate in Vietnam.
January 30th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Hello Mr. Shermer and readers,
I am just here to tell you that we have proven 9/11 an inside by thoroughly investigating the Pentagon and proving there most definitely was a deception that took place that day.
We have interviewed witnesses on location, victims, firefighters, cameramen, photographers, police officers. The evidence we have obtained is conclusive and is a very simply detail that blows the entire case wide open.
I seriously suggest that Mr. Shermer not lump everyone into this “harassing truther” category as we have obtained very serious evidence that deserves the utmost attention. We’d be glad to discuss the details with Mr. Shermer if he is interested, and he should be. To ignore this matter would be a great disservice to our country and tantamount to treason.
Aldo Marquis
Citizen Investigation Team
ThePentaCon.com
January 30th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
this is intitled:sombody please throw us a rope ….it seems that in most peoples minds today there are few difining lines between questions & statments this “a simple fact”or rather a brick wall that is an enormous problem in the world today…thats a statment” i call this false independance or “self isolationism” no” i thinkk we are all together in this whether we like it or not…its a litte trick we play on ouwselves with hope that it will speed up the prosses of finding the the truth kinda like thinking less is more is good” or bad is good”…..big mistake ? why is there so much time’effort “and energy spent on “trying” to be good as if good is some place or a goal far far awy arent we already there? good ? now thats a question ! see? ….but no worries theres a new fronteer …why dont we try and learn a new approch wich is instead of making statments about questions that are being raised .. ask more questions.. or just give our best effort to answer them ? arent questions suposed to be asked when the anser is unknown ? are we just waisting time intill are time is up ? come on lets not kid around less is less and no more than that! for michle shermer to ask a question is ok and what was asked was asked hence {not a statement!} looking for the truth ? just ask” anyway whats shermer got with any of this ? hes just turnig over rocks …looking for answers ….skeptile minds whant to know ? the sun is beginning to shine lets move on to bigger questions like” why dont we know wich toilet paper feels best on our asses” ? or if we unplugged the cable and and stuck it in our ears would we get all 350 channels of ansers at once? oh ” and maybe we shuold stop settin the alarm clock to excuse us 15 mins ahead of ourselves ? dont be alarmed there just questions ! can someone please throw us a rope ? second thought forget it. measages from the outernet
January 30th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Al-Qaeda for years publicly boasts that the United States is its number one enemy. Al-Qaeda tries, but fails, to destroy the World Trade Centre in 1993. Al-Qaeda attacks a variety of other US targets elsewhere in the world (USS Cole, the embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam). When the Twin towers are destroyed in 2001, Al-Qaeda claims responsibility.
Most of us would use Occam’s Razor and conclude that there is a very high probability that Al-Qaeda did it ! But for the “truthers” there is a secret cabal that rules the world (and, in the more extreme versions, it’s a Zionist/Jewish cabal), pulls the strings on US administrations, and must have destroyed the World Trade Centre. Any evidence to the contrary is dismissed as an elaborate smokescreen thrown up by the masterminds of the cabal.
It’s the same mindset that blamed the illuminati/freemasons/jews for the French or Russian revolutions.
Of course a momentous historical event such as 9/11 has its puzzles and loose ends. That’s the nature of major events - they’re not neat and tidy. But most of the supposed anomalies (such as the collapse of WTC7) have by now been investigated and plausible explanations proposed.
Among the obvious problems with the conspiracy theory is that it would have required dozens, if not hundreds, of government officials to keep absolutely quiet about what had really happened. And US political culture is not like that. Washington leaks, and there are still enough journalists of integrity in the US media to pick up those leaks and blow the lid off real conspiracies (as happened with Watergate).
The fact that, over six years after the event, no official of any US Agency has come forward with any inside knowledge of a plot to hijack airliners and fly them into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, is strong evidence that the only real plot was the one cooked up by Osama Bin Laden.
As for the crazed idea that the Earl of Oxford wrote the works of Shakespeare, no serious scholar of 16th and 17th century literature believes it. It is an example of crass snobbery - since a middle class, grammar school lad from Stratford could not have written masterpieces, they must all be the work of a member of our born rulers, the aristocracy!
January 30th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
I have, sadly, come to the conclusion that the only universal negative that can be easily proven is the statement “No one could be stupid enough to believe that!” Dr. Shermer was right to end the interview. It is pointless to attempt a rational conversation with an irrational person. Why waste your time or theirs?
January 30th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
There is something going on here that needs to be investigated.
A small but vocal group of people are eager to invent a phony cause to blame an administration that has committed a plethora real high crimes and misdemeanors against the American people.
Why would they do this? They expect to gain something from taking this absurd position, what? What is wrong with condemning a crime that cannot be disproved - making war on Iraq, for instance?
To say that somebody is a nut explains nothing.
January 30th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
power to the people ” oh” more= ansers and questions.. less =statments oh yah “thanks mike” .
January 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Again, I suggest you all stop talking and start learning.
We have evidence that now proves 9/11 was an inside job.
You weren’t there, these witnesses were. Their placement of the plane is IRRECONCILABLE with the physical damage and the security gate cam footage that shows an object with a tail fin low and level across the lawn. The witnesses NEVER gained knowledge of the official flight path and physical damage and for that reason they were oblivious to and didn’t realize the implications of what they were telling us. For that we should all be thankful and we should now rush to action.
I defy anyone here to tell these witnesses that the plane was on the other side of the gas station.
It approached on the north side of the gas station, therfore 9/11 has been proven to be an inside job.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Analysis of Pentagon light pole damage and path of plane, including video animation:
http://www.pentagonresearch.com/lamps.html
January 30th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Its unfortunate to have people harassing the events. Even more so by people who happen to believe their own BS.
Heres to hoping they get bored with it eventually and move on. I wouldn’t hold my breath though. It gets heavy, might choke and even die.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
I just couldn’t resist!
______________________
So many idiots and so little time!
It seems to me that at some time during the evolution of man the “idiot gene” crept in……or maybe a god stepped in and just gave us that pesky gene for the fun of it. But with reason and logic many people seem to learn how to control this ugly gene and others just can’t seem to get control of that little pest. We all do idiotic things at times but there are some people who can’t suppress the “idiot gene” and it just raises its ugly head and turns them into full blown idiots!
Wouldn’t it be great if there was an accurate “idiot gene” detector that could measure the out of control level of the hopeless ones and we could identify them and place them in an appropriate holding section and not waste valuable time answering any of their weird questions! [Gee… guess that would be profiling!]
It is a shame with so many important things to talk about that the “truthers” and “conspiracy quacks” can interrupt reasonable presentations and thoughts of people like Michael Shermer.
There is also a flip side to this debate. Some of the people that condemn Bush for being too stupid to accomplish such a conspiracy do not have the sense to accept the principle that we are actually in a war confronting world terrorism….and it is serious! This is a complex world and Bush has made mistakes but he did not order the planes to fly into the Twin Towers and he does know that Radical Islamic terrorists did it. That puts him many points ahead of those possessed by the “idiot gene!”
There are intelligent debates and then…idiotic ones!
We should think Michael Shermer and Bill Maher for reminding us that there is a line that is only crossed by those with the “100% idiot gene!”
Someone will probably say I’m “name” calling.
John
January 30th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
9/11 conspiracy theorists should take an objective step back and rexamine their ideas through the lens of Carl Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit:
- Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the “facts.”
- Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.
- Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts.
- Spin more than one hypothesis. If there’s something to be explained, think of all the different ways in which it could be explained. Then think of tests by which you might systematically disprove each of the alternatives. What survives, the hypothesis that resists disproof in this Darwinian selection among “multiple working hypotheses,” has a much better chance of being the right answer than if you had simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.
- Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it’s yours. It’s only a way station in the pursuit of knowledge. Ask yourself why you like the idea. Compare it fairly with the alternatives. See if you can find reasons for rejecting it. If you don’t, others will.
-Quantify. If whatever it is you’re explaining has some measure, some numerical quantity attached to it, you’ll be much better able to discriminate among competing hypotheses. What is vague and qualitative is open to many explanations. Of course there are truths to be sought in the many qualitative issues we are obliged to confront, but finding them is more challenging.
-If there’s a chain of argument, every link in the chain must work (including the premise) — not just most of them.
-Occam’s Razor. This convenient rule-of-thumb urges us when faced with two hypotheses that explain the data equally well to choose the simpler.
-Always ask whether the hypothesis can be, at least in principle, falsified. Propositions that are untestable, unfalsifiable are not worth much. Consider the grand idea that our Universe and everything in it is just an elementary particle — an electron, say — in a much bigger Cosmos. But if we can never acquire information from outside our Universe, is not the idea incapable of disproof? You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and see if they get the same result.
Parting thoughts:
How likely is it that the same government and Administration who could not even coordinate an effective response to Hurricane Katrina could internally orchestrate and coordinate something as complicated as the 9/11 conspiracy that the “Truthers” claim happened?. Not very.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence…
January 30th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
My answer to the deniers/conspiracy theorists would be that it was not necessary for steel to reach it’s melting point. It has been made clear by experts that the strength of steel diminishes at well below the melting temperature. Even non-engineers know about this process. So a structure can be compromised without any melting. There is no discrepancy in that regard. On the other hand, if the discussion of 9-11 is off topic, then I say don’t address it at all. Show the offenders to the door.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:15 am
# Wayward Son Says:
(January 25th, 2008 at 7:50 pm)
“If you think these people are just asking innocent questions then you are lucky enough to have not met truther”
You are correct - the first “Truther” that I had met was at Shermer’s lecture in Philadelphia on the 15th. Contrary to what you’re saying, he was polite and articulate. Furthermore he did not mention the demolition theories; he focused primarily on behind-the-scene whistleblowers.
After the lecture had ended, an older man walked up to him and started yelling, “you’re sick! sick!” and walked away. He had no interest in discussion or civility, and obviously hadn’t heard a word that was said.
While anti-9/11-conspiracists make good points, they make plenty of needless ad-hominem attacks as well (including on this page)
Obviously there are going to be fanatics in every movement, including conspiracy skeptics.
——————
# Wayward Son also wrote:
“Plus the person with the video camera” (was harassing Shermer)
I fail to see how simply filming a lecture could possibly be considered “harassment”. If that were the case then the Philadelphia Freethought Society would also be guilty, since they filmed the entire event.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:41 am
Ask Aldo Marquis about the multitude of other eyewitnesses contradicting his findings, the recovered DNA evidence, how the plane debris got there, the FDR data, the radar records, and the fact that not a single person saw the plane fly OVER the Pentagon. It will get amusing.
I have collected the history of some well known 9/11 conspiracy theories. It’s always good to know where they are coming from.
http://911guide.googlepages.com/history
As you will find out, most of these theories were first promoted only days or weeks after the attacks, by people with no expertise, with no proper investigating. You will see holocaust deniers as well as all-around conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones among those people.
Six years later, these same theories are still alive. Sad but true.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:43 am
I was close by Ground zero on 9/11/01. I have looked at virtually every conspiracy web-site related to 9/11. Read all the books. Seen all the videos. All the “truther” materials. And I have also looked at every conspiracy debunking source. I have done this carefully and repeatedly over the past few years. I have compared data extensively. My life was changed, I wanted to know why.
My conclusions? There is no “official conspiracy theory”. Merely an enormous amount of evidence that leads to the inescapable conclusion that 19 fundamentalist muslims masterminded by repeatedly self declared enemies of the West finally brought down the WTC after failing in ‘93. Simply put, they’ll attack the West again if they get the opportunity.
The anomalies? Well, so far as I have been able to determine, there aren’t all that many of them, and the claims “truthers” make turn out to be the result of logical fallacies, innumeracy, exaggerations, quotes taken out of context, edited video, and, yes, outright fabrications. Hey, when anyone claims to own the truth, a few lies for a good cause are no problem. The Holocaust denial analogy is not inappropriate.
And that’s not even going near the fabulously insane theories that the “WTC was destroyed by particle weapons in outer space” of Dr. Judy Wood, or the somewhat more obscure claims made on some web sites that nuclear weapons were used to bring down the WTC. And there are others.
In fact, there is no one narrative for what happened on 9/11 among “truthers”. The dirty little secret of their “movement” is that there are just as many claims that fellow “truthers” are wrong, or “disinformation agents” as there are accusations and claims against “the Government” and those who disagree with them. The “9/11truth movement” is a many-headed hydra just as likely to be snapping at itself as the rest of the world.
Incidentally, in my opinion, the reason “inside jobbers” show up to get attention at public gatherings has more to do with their frustration at not being able to use the standard tools of Madison Avenue, including the modern technique of “viral” campaigning, to sell any version of “9/11truth” to the general public, than anything else.
By their own poll numbers, belief that the Bush Administration did it (or MIHOP) extends to about 4.6% of the public.
Obviously, Far fewer than believe in, say, UFO’s.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:09 am
It’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:39 am
I met with my Alderbaranian Controller yesterday (A reall grey), and he told me 9/11 was actually done by Xenu’s supporters hiding in the center court of the Pentagon, and breaking through the Pentagon’s wall was an attempt to release Xenu’s spirit. WTC was a diversion.
Now I have to leave and sail off with Captain Hagbard into the sunset…
January 31st, 2008 at 7:18 am
I’ll point out that neither Aldo Marquis nor Craig Ranke was ever able to answer numerous questions in numerous forums concerning the contradictions, outright lies, made-up evidence, and other irrational claims they make both in writing and in their Grade B sci-fi flick, The PentaCon.
For those who still believe that the 9/11 Truth Movement is anything BUT denial in action, Aldo Marquis and Craig Ranke and the PentaCon scam, demonstrate the full nature of the evil, immorality, sickness, and irrational nature of Denial in action.
Of anyone in the 9/11 Denial Movement, Marquis and Ranke will be relegated to the trash bin of history with Holocaust Deniers.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:19 am
What do Bill Maher, Noam Chomsky and Michael Shermer have in common? They all openly refute the September 11th conspiracy theorists.
Three more disparet souls could hardly be found.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:30 am
mark eyestone wrote:
“The fact that all FAA protocol regarding crash investigation was disregarded is a huge red flag;…”
That is a false statement.
“…without a proper investigation of the physical evidence there is no way to verify (or disprove) the government line.
False. There is no “government line.” There is only the evidence, massive evidence from thousands of different sources that converge on the inescapable conclusion of what happened on 9/11, and never refuted by anyone. Unless and until anyone can demonstrate otherwise, there is no rational way anyone in the world would ever consider wasting money on another investigation.
“If it walks like a highly-engineered controlled demolition, and quacks like a highly-engineered controlled demolition…”
That is one of the most fallacious arguments brought up by the 9/11 Denial Movement and repeatedly trashed.
In order for anyone to make the claim that because it “looked” like a controlled demolition, therefore it “was”, one would have to present as evidence what an UNcontrolled demolition does NOT look like.
It just goes to show that 9/11 conspiracy myths are perpetuated over time no matter how many times they are shown to be false. You need to pay attention to critical thinking, think for yourselves critically, and stop believing nonsense as if it were true.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:15 pm
I stand corrected…
As a red-blooded American I truly believe that this nation was our manifest destiny, given to us by God himself. Evolution is a fallacy. How do I know that? Because my religious leaders tell say so, it’s witten in the Bible after all. What else do I believe? Hmmm, well, first we HAD to burn the witches and kill the savage indians becasue they were godless beasts; Vietnam was a necessary war and if we, Gods chosen, did not kill all them damn gooks over there we would all be commies now; Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, clearly…
But seriously, I am amazed at how many people posting on a skeptics website have no tolerance for others simply asking questions. I’m not a raving conspiracist like Alex Jones or Art Bell and I’m not trying to say that there is a specific conspiracy, only that there are numerous discrepancies in the (yes, I’ll say it again) “official” story.
So much evidence continues to be hidden from view…why? Why not release all of the public and private Pentagon surveilance footage instead of just a few frames? If we know a plane flew into the building (and I believe it did), why not show us the footage? What state secrets are going to be divulged in a 30-second video clip? Trust the government when they present their findings? There’s nothing rational about THAT course of action, look no further than the FDA and EPA processes for approving new drugs and chemicals…the research (sic) is done by the concerned industry and rubber-stamped by these poorly funded and understaffed agencies. “Here, take these pills, they’re perfectly safe. Of course we haven’t tested them in tandem with any of the other pills you’re taking and, well, we haven’t done any long-term studies…but it’s perfectly safe, trust us.”
As for the Occam’s Razor arguement I ask: which is the simpler explanation for the manner in which all three WTC buildings went down at near free-fall speed into their own footprint–precise controlled demolition charges that have produced the same results consistantly for decades, or numerous failings in a highly-engineered piece of architecture that somehow came together simultaneously to initiate a near-symmetrical freefall even though the damage done to the buildings was not at all symmetrical?
True, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence…the official explanation for the manner of collapse of the WTC buildings is quite extraordinary.
But alas, there is no longer any evidence around to allow any of these questions to be sufficiently answered, one way or another. What we are apparently stuck with is the official story as it stands; and apparently we should have absolute faith in that story. That’s right, there’s no reason to be skeptical of what the government says is the truth. Period.
Finally, I have to say that I am a bit dismayed at face presented by skeptics here. Many of the people posting on this thread have resorted to petty name-calling and implying that anyone asking these questions is either sick in the head or unbelievably stupid. Please, skeptics, try not to look like a bunch of raging assholes so quick to deride anyone who doesn’t believe exactly what you do…it makes you sound like a bunch of fundamentalist Christians railing against anyone who doesn’t believe the world was created just a few thousand years ago.
Name-calling and dialogue are incompatible; how can you expect to change anyone’s grasp of factual reality through personal insults? State the facts, answer the questions, and if there’s something that you don’t know or can’t explain be honest and admit as much.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:31 pm
mark eyestone wrote:
“But seriously, I am amazed at how many people posting on a skeptics website have no tolerance for others simply asking questions.”
You must be very new at this, Mark. There is no one to my knowledge that does not welcome others asking questions. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada,
What is simply incomprehensible, Mark, insulting to human intelligence, to the scientific method, to logic and critical thinking, and to those who have gone to GREAT effort to address ALL of the questions and “doubts” ever raised about 9/11 is when those, including you, WILLFULLY REFUSE to listen to the answers given. We have heard your excuse endlessly for the last six years as you bring up the same debunked nonsense refuted repeatedly hundreds of times.
So, my suggestion for you, Mark, is to get off your derriere and stop embarrassing yourself and LOOK UP the answers and do your own research. If you don’t believe it, refute it. When you and the 9/11 Denial Movement stop insulting our intelligence by claiming you’re “just asking questions.” When you stop insulting the massive effort that has documented 9/11, and the memories of those 3,000 innocent victims of 9/11, you will have EARNED respect. Until them, expect derision for hiding behind the canard of “just asking questions” when you should know better.
Any questions?
January 31st, 2008 at 2:35 pm
In regards to Shermer, the holohoax and the deluding novel - Denying History, noboby exposes the fraud of all three better than - The National Association of Forensic Criminologists, Archeologists, Skeptics and Historians
http://nafcash.com/
Here is an excerpt from the site -
“Michael Shermer accuses real skeptics of denying history because, in part, they refuse to share his delusional belief that the Germans were able to murder millions of Jews without leaving a trace. In his sophomoric and sophistic attempt to “prove” this accusation, he has denied forensic science, criminology and archeology. In accusing others of practicing pseudo history, he not only has engaged in it himself, but also had to forgo the scientific method and the very fundamental principles of skepticism which he claims guides his belief system. In his own words, again from Denying History: “The best way to beat a lie detector is to believe the lie yourself… Deception becomes self-deception.” Really? Well then, let’s use the alleged Treblinka holocaust as a case study in denial and self-deception. Here’s another montage of Michael Shermer quotes from Denying History: “The culmination of years of research… our purpose… to present the historical facts that refute Holocaust denial… To debunk the deniers can’t we just go there and see them for ourselves? The answer, of course, is “yes.”… We can no longer ignore the deniers, calling them names and hoping they will go away… We cannot remain silent anymore. It’s time to respond… Not only is it defensible to respond to the deniers, it is, we believe, our duty… Many of our arguments draw on specialized research into the claims of the deniers that took us… to the Nazi extermination camps themselves… we went to Europe to conduct research at the camps, in particular at… Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec… We wanted to see for ourselves just what evidence there is at the camps and to take the opportunity to examine firsthand the claims… Much of the research is the type of work professional historians normally do… analyzing ground and aerial photographs… in order to make proper interpretations, we must review the physical evidence… Like criminologists solving a crime, we piece together the myriad bits of evidence until a conclusion emerges from the morass of data… How is it that so much physical evidence can come to be doubted?”
“Reviewing the physical evidence?” - “Analyzing ground and aerial photographs?” - “Like criminologists solving a crime?” Well now Michael, real skeptics and scholars have been waiting for years for you to publish the results of your alleged firsthand examination of the physical evidence and analysis of aerial photographs of Treblinka. If you’re so incredulous that people can come to doubt so much physical evidence and photographic proof, then why do you refuse to publish the results of your alleged research? If there’s so much physical evidence – then let’s see it! What’s wrong Shermer? Your silence is deafening. What happened to your duty to respond? (After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial – don’t you?)
So why are the billion dollar per-year holocaust industry and its fawning front men at the “Skeptics” Society afraid to honestly apply the scientific method to the fairy tale known as the Treblinka holocaust? It really is this incredibly simple: The alleged Treblinka holocaust literally stands or falls on the existence of the alleged huge mass graves, and the nonsensical lies of Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor become untenable (as if they’re not already!) if the truth about Treblinka is exposed. Are you beginning to understand why the Jews have gotten holocaust denial (Jewish code name for THE TRUTH) to be a criminal offense in 15 countries of the world? And the “Skeptics” Society is aiding and abetting them in this immoral inquisition! And to add insult to injury, they’re prostituting themselves to the holocaust industry under the guise of skeptical inquiry and the scientific method! That explains why the alleged Treblinka holocaust had to be “proven” with the “science of history” instead of real science and tangible physical evidence. (The only other explanation for this craven refusal to apply the scientific method to scientifically knowable truths and forensically provable facts is that the logically retarded pseudo-skeptics at the Schleptics Society actually believe in magically disappearing Jews!) Of course, if all these charges are unfounded, then it begs the question: Why does Michael SHAMMER refuse to publish the findings of his alleged investigation which he claims he conducted at Treblinka? (Odd behavior for a “scientist” who claims he wants to put an end to holocaust denial – isn’t it?)”
No graves = No Treblinka holocaust
January 31st, 2008 at 3:06 pm
There are many legitimate questions here on both sides of the argument. Remember that no one needs to prove 9/11 was or was not an “inside job” right now for there to be enough evidence to reopen the 9/11 investigation. And I think that most of the so-called “conspiracy theorists” or “9/11 Truthers” (terms used to marginalize or distract) want a real investigation and are not in this fight just to promote their own theories. If the government is not guilty then lets reopen 9/11 and have a real independent investigation. Examine all the evidence and let the chips fall where they may. Otherwise the conspiracy theories will continue to build.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:04 pm
nafcash.com, has anyone claimed the quarter of a million yet? Surely a holocaust-insister somewhere will leap at the chance to cash in: they certainly
make a killing already, with no evidence at all.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Why don’t those skeptical of 911 truthers and Holocaust claims go debate on another board. How many topics are workable on a single thread. Geeeeeesh.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:45 pm
“With no evidence at all” indeed. Here is an excerpt from the nafcash site - ( http://nafcash.com/ )
“According to the orthodox version of the holocaust, at Treblinka the Germans murdered and buried, then dug up, burned and crushed the bones, and then - REBURIED all the crushed bone and ash of 870,000 Jews INTO THE SAME MASS GRAVES; thus, they allegedly - “obliterated all evidence of their crime.” If you’re unfamiliar with the controversies surrounding this “judicially proven fact,” then it’s imperative that before you begin reading this site, you understand the forensic argumentation presented in this link HERE:
“This is the biggest cemetery of Polish Jewry… There are 870,000 Jews buried in the enormous ditches… Within this area initially, the Jews were buried in enormous pits… Later on, a sort of grill from railroad tracks was built. The corpses were removed and this area served for burning the corpses… Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka - all three of them were utterly eradicated… Both Treblinka and the other camps, once they had fulfilled their task of extermination, were obliterated… Nothing remains - nothing.”
Nothing remains? Who in their right mind could believe that a perfect crime could be committed while murdering 870,000 people? Everyone knows that at every crime scene - EVIDENCE IS LEFT BEHIND: “Cremated remains weigh between three and nine pounds.” In order to believe the orthodox Treblinka holocaust legend, you must believe this: The Germans, by putting a layer of soil over millions of pounds of crushed bone and ash, tens of millions of teeth and tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings somehow, magically - “utterly eradicated” all evidence of their crime!
Utterly eradicated? How about utter nonsense? Why would the Germans go through all that work, knowing full well there would still be millions of pounds of evidence left behind, then put all that incriminating evidence right back into the very graves that they allegedly had just dug all that evidence out of? It’s understandable when a toddler believes that he’s made himself invisible while playing peek-a-boo by covering his eyes, but how do you explain the insanity of the holocaust “scholars” who believe that a layer of soil can make millions of pounds of evidence magically disappear?
To put this UTTERLY ILLOGICAL FRAUD in perspective, it’s like someone claiming that he could murder every single man, woman and child in Montana and magically not leave a single trace of his crime! So if Shermer and all the other officially sanctioned holocaust “scholars” can’t offer an iota of tangible physical evidence to back up their fraudulent claim that the alleged Treblinka holocaust has been scientifically proven - not even a single tooth out of an alleged 27 million! - then what’s left for the true believers to cling to in justifying their continued belief in the orthodox version of the Treblinka story? Why the perfect crime / magically disappearing Jew “theory” of course! It simply boggles the mind that it’s necessary to explain to college educated school teachers (just as you would to a three-year-old child), that by covering something up with dirt you’re not actually making it magically disappear.
No graves = No Treblinka holocaust
February 1st, 2008 at 6:01 am
nafcash.com, ummm, my reply wasn’t an endorsement of that site’s position, it was an ironic rebuke. But, thanks for being my new buddy! [lol]..Come on, if people were really “making a killing” with holocaust-reparations, why wouldn’t they just as easily be able to claim the quarter of a million on nafcash.com? Why would standards of proof be any less strict outside of the site? People aren’t trying to claim the money, because its not about just “making money”, it’s about reparations ; and since that site had nothing to do with the holocaust, why would anyone waste time on its “reward”?
February 1st, 2008 at 7:34 am
Well little buddy, the nafcash site - http://nafcash.com/ - unequivocally exposes Michael Shermer as a liar, hypocrite and fraud, and the standards of proof are just 1 % of the alleged mass murder at Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor. And the standard of proof for BAbi Yar is just just 1 tenth of 1 %.
If Shammer and his work on the holocaust have been exposed as fraudulent (which of course they have), then why should anyone believe his equally spurious work on 9 / 11?
You are right about one thing little buddy, it’s not about the money, it’s about putting an end to “holocaust denial.” Here is an excerpt from the nafcash site -
“Since Michael Shermer (the president of the “Skeptics” Society and publisher of “SKEPTIC” magazine) has such disdain for real skeptics (i.e. - intelligent / logical people who refuse to share his delusion that millions of Jews can magically vanish from the face of the earth without leaving a trace), “SKEPTIC” magazine should be more than willing to publish the results of any scientific investigation that claims to have proven that the largest of the asinine pure extermination center legends has been forensically proven to be a fact. Therefore, all one has to do to become a claimant for THE TREBLINKA CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION CHALLENGE TM reward is to have said claims / results published in “SKEPTIC” Magazine. Now, just how hard should it be for the “we-must-see-compelling-evidence-before-we-believe” sham “Skeptics” Society to prove just 1% of the alleged mass murder at Treblinka IF the official story is true?
To all those who want to put an end to holocaust denial and who still believe that the deniers are crazy when they talk about Jewish conspiracies (But your belief in magically disappearing Jews is sane, right?), then why haven’t you accepted THE TREBLINKA CSI CHALLENGE TM? And why don’t you ASK MICHAEL SHERMER why, if he so desperately yearns to earn the title of Righteous Gentile, does he refuse to take advantage of the golden opportunity that NAFCASH TM is giving him to help stop holocaust denial? And while you’re challenging Shermer, why don’t you remind him of what he wrote in his deluding novel DENYING HISTORY: “We also traveled to the camps themselves, to… Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec… to test the claims that no mass murders… took place by intention at these camps.” Really? Did he conduct scientific tests using the real sciences of forensic criminology and archaeology? If not, why? And if so, then why does he refuse to publish the results? And why don’t you ask him how he rationalizes his cowardly refusal to debate true skeptics who expose his gross hypocrisy and illusory “testing of the claims” with this other quote from Denying History: “Others have argued that to meet with the deniers or answer their claims is to validate them, but we believe that to let their arguments go unanswered presents the greater danger.” So why does Michael Shermer refuse to answer NAFCASH’s TM questions and/or accept its challenges?
If “the world’s foremost skeptic” (who insists his sophomoric CONVERGENCE OF EVIDENCE theory historically proves the holocaust), can’t scientifically locate even one of the alleged huge mass graves of Treblinka and can’t forensically prove even 1% of this absurd myth, then what does that say about the veracity of this so-called historically proven fact? Shermer’s sophistry is akin to a scientist claiming that he has proven the great flood / Noah’s Ark fable by using nothing but bible verses! What we’re challenging anyone to prove is undeniably a scientifically knowable truth and a forensically provable fact. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.”
No graves = No Treblinka holocaust
February 1st, 2008 at 8:50 am
b.j. edwards: Any questions?
I have a question for you Mr. Edwards, about the 1993 WTC bombing - was Emad Salem an FBI informant?
Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question -
#1
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html
(Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)
#2
http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html
*
No graves = No Treblinka holocaust
February 1st, 2008 at 9:12 am
Greg Gerdes seems not only to be misinformed….but redundant!
I have never understood the conspiracy quacks….but here
is a thought.
Maybe all the world terrorists are under the mind control of Bin Laden and they have figured out how to infect some of our citizens with some undisclosed substance that makes the “idiot gene” go wild and they will destroy all the Infidels by simply harassing them to death! And I bet the Government has secretly hired Michael Shermer and Bill Maher to fight this plague and doesn’t want us to know anything about it……its gotta be..and don’t you think and investigation is warranted? The problem is the only unbiased judgment to solve this complex problem would have to handled by the Space aliens nobody can find because the government is hiding all of them and they are too weak or dumb to escape the captivity of stupid mankind.
So little time….and so many more important things to talk about!
John
February 1st, 2008 at 10:06 am
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/
Bin Laden says he wasn’t behind attacks
September 17, 2001 Posted: 11:21 AM EDT (1521 GMT)
DOHA, Qatar (CNN) — Islamic militant leader Osama bin Laden, the man the United States considers the prime suspect in last week’s terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, denied any role Sunday in the actions believed to have killed thousands.
In a statement issued to the Arabic satellite channel Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, bin Laden said, “The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it.
“I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons,” bin Laden’s statement said.
“I have been living in the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan and following its leaders’ rules. The current leader does not allow me to exercise such operations,” bin Laden said.
CNN.COM SPECIAL REPORT
CNN NewsPass Video
Agencies reportedly got hijack tips in 1998
MORE STORIES
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Report cites warnings before 9/11
EXTRA INFORMATION
Timeline: Who Knew What and When?
Interactive: Terror Investigation
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In-Depth: America Remembers
In-Depth: Terror on Tape
In-Depth: How prepared is your city?
RESOURCES
On the Scene: Barbara Starr: Al Qaeda hunt expands?
On the Scene: Peter Bergen: Getting al Qaeda to talk
Asked Sunday if he believed bin Laden’s denial, President Bush said, “No question he is the prime suspect. No question about that.”
Since Tuesday’s terrorist attacks against the United States, Bush has repeatedly threatened to strike out against terrorism and any nation that supports or harbors its disciples.
Bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi-born exile, has lived in Afghanistan for several years. U.S. officials blame him for earlier strikes on U.S. targets, including last year’s attack on the USS Cole in Yemen and the bombings of the U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 1998.
Bin Laden’s campaign stems from the 1990 decision by Saudi Arabia to allow U.S. troops into the kingdom after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait — a military presence that has become permanent.
In a 1997 CNN interview, bin Laden called the U.S. military presence an “occupation of the land of the holy places.”
Immediately after the attacks that demolished the World Trade Center’s landmark twin towers and seriously damaged the Pentagon, officials of Afghanistan’s ruling Taliban said they doubted bin Laden could have been involved in carrying out the actions.
The Taliban — the fundamentalist Islamic militia that seized power in Afghanistan in 1996 — denied his ties to terrorism and said they have taken away all his means of communication with the outside world.
The repressive Taliban regime has received almost universal condemnation, particularly for their harsh treatment of women. Only three countries, including Pakistan, recognize them as the country’s rightful government.
A high-level Pakistani delegation was set to travel to Afghanistan on Monday to urge Taliban supreme leader Mullah Mohammed Omar to hand over bin Laden, CNN learned Sunday.
The Taliban, which controls more than 90 percent of the country, has threatened any neighboring country that allows its soil to be used to help the United States stage an attack on Afghanistan.
February 1st, 2008 at 1:05 pm
John Wagner:
“Greg Gerdes seems not only to be misinformed…”
Well John, since comedy certainly isn’t your thing, maybe education is. If I’m misinformed, then would you please inform me? Here is my question about the 1993 WTC bombing again - Was Emad Salem an FBI informant?
Here are a couple of resources to help you asnwer my question -
#1
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/OK/wtcbomb.html
(Make sure to watch the CBS NEWS report video about the FBI’s foreknowledge at the bottom of the site.)
#2
http://takingaim.info/articles/wtc93.html
Just a simple yes or no will suffice. Can you handle this questin John? Or do I need to simplify it for you?
And here’s another question for you John, a question Michael Shermer refuses to answer - How many “huge mass graves” are there at Treblinka?
Two very simple questions for a very simple man. Now if you think I’m redundant John, then just answer the questions so I don’t have to ask them again, OK?
John Wagner:
“So little time… and so many more important things to talk about!”
What could be more important than putting an end to holocaust denial? After all, you do want to put an end to holocaust denial - don’t you John?
No graves = No “pure extermination centers”
February 1st, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Mr. Shermer, why did you respond to the question about the passport found in the WTC rubble by claiming it is an “urban legend”? Are you one of those “conspiracy theorists” who doesn’t believe ABC News?
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/disinfo/deceptions/abc_nosurvivors.html
“Investigators discovered the passport of Satam al Suqami, one of the terrorists aboard American Airlines Flight 11, the first plane to hit the World Trade Center.”
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/disinfo/deceptions/abc_hunt.html
“ABCNEWS sources identify another hijacker as Satan Suqami, a Saudi national on American Airlines Flight 11, whose passport was recovered in the rubble.”
That was easy. Do your homework beyond watching the Hearst propaganda doc. Your “fans” have.
February 1st, 2008 at 4:43 pm
http://www.ae911truth.org/
A whistle blower released the blue prints to WTC more than a year ago. Any explanations prior to that are fantasy.
Mayer believes the official conspiracy which was never proven. Look for the bigger picture. Don’t be afraid.
February 1st, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Follow the money.
Sept 10, 2001, Donald Rumsfeld admits that the Pentagon can’t track over 2.3 trillion dollars.
More money for the Pentagon, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends.
“According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions,” Rumsfeld admitted.
The next day, the Pentagon’s accounting dept is hit by something, and the fallout is that they decide not to have an audit for 2001.
This is just one of many things accomplished by 9/11.
The World Trade Center was an albatross in New York, filled with asbestos. The cost to make it safe and take out the asbestos was prohibitive. So, another problem solved when they are demolished.
WTC7, implodes, who knows what SEC investigations were destroyed in that.
The fake war on terrorism funds the military industrial complex, over close to a trillion dollars to the defense industry.
This is all just outright theft, 8 years of Bush and the country is bankrupt, and we’ll be paying it off for years.
It goes on and on, those in denial are those that can’t look at the hundred of problems with the official story and see it for what it is, a crock of shit.
Does it really seem plausible that a country who spends more on it’s military than than the rest of the world combined, would leave it’s military headquarters defenseless? Of course there are defense systems on the Pentagon, they were just not used on 9/11. Ask yourself why not?
February 1st, 2008 at 5:39 pm
“paul fauvet Says:
January 30th, 2008 at 5:37 am
John P. Jones and other “truthers” conveniently forget that 9/11 was the second attack on the World Trade Centre. The first was the truck bomb of 1993, for which Al-Qaeda operative Ramzi Youssef is currently serving a life sentence.”
What cognitively lazy individuals such as yourself don’t realize is that you’ve been conditioned to repeat what you’ve seen the most on TV and in the media. The 1993 WTC occurred because the FBI provided LIVE bomb material to an ex-egyptian informer, Edam Salem, for making the truck bomb. This informant recorded his discussions with his FBI handler because he didn’t trust them (wonder why?). He asked if he should swap the bomb material with something safe and his handlers told him not to. The audio of these tapes is online “google: Edam Salem mp3″ to hear it along with plenty of other details.
“Steve Says:
January 30th, 2008 at 6:03 am
I’d really like to see a whole article on the human tendency to believe conspiracy theories. There seems to be a certain percentage of people who are just wired this way, such that it really doesn’t matter which conspiracy we’re talking about… they’re all true and they’re almost all related.”
Here’s the scoop straight from a published author in the cognitive sciences- You, and every one like you, has been conditioned (brainwashed). You watch and read too much from one source, the main stream media. You ignore facts when they are presented because they overwhelm your emotions. This is called cognitive dissonance. And because you ignore the facts you continue to belief in that which is not real. But these “truthers” won’t go away with their damnable facts!! So they must be crazy! They must be…”conspiracy theorists”. Look up the individual definitions for that phrase and you will find nothing about crazy people. That is because the media has conditioned a new meaning for the phrase over the past several decades. “Oh but they couldn’t do that!!” Stop living in a fantasy world and WAKE UP!
CLASSICAL CONDITIONING OF ATTITUDES AS A FUNCTION OF NUMBER OF PERSUASION TRIALS AND ARGUMENT (UCS) STRENGTH. WEISS, ROBERT F.; CHALUPA, LEO M.; GORMAN, BERNARD S.; Psychonomic Science, Vol 11(2), 1968. pp. 59-60.
February 1st, 2008 at 5:39 pm
While attending Michael Shermer’s book tour last night in Del Mar I was horrified by the ‘truthers’ and their obvious disregard for the dozens of people who were there to hear about ‘The Mind of the Market’. Their rude, self-serving behavior was incredibly annoying and even if they had something worth talking about this was not the time or place to do it. What a waste of everyone’s time who came out for a book tour! Who raised these inconsiderate people?
February 1st, 2008 at 6:07 pm
“b. j. edwards Says:
January 31st, 2008 at 7:30 am
False. There is no “government line.” There is only the evidence, massive evidence from thousands of different sources that converge on the inescapable conclusion of what happened on 9/11, and never refuted by anyone. Unless and until anyone can demonstrate otherwise, there is no rational way anyone in the world would ever consider wasting money on another investigation.”
More money was spent on investigating Clintion’s penis and other women than 9/11. The evidence you claim exists is in a fantasy world. The modus operandi for 9/11 is laid out in Rebuilding America’s defenses, by the members of the Project for a New American century. All of those rodents have been engaged in constant lies and fabrications which are well documented all over the net and elsewhere. If you are truly ignorant of these FACTS then you need to WAKE UP and start reading. Don’t expect to have a firm grasp on reality when you are being spoon fed your information.
February 1st, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Irate behaviorist Says:
February 1st, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Obviously, you never bothered to the PNAC reports:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm
but relied on what your Truther priests told you.
“If you are truly ignorant of these FACTS then you need to WAKE UP and start reading.”
I did years ago, bubba. Why haven’t YOU? You can start here: http://www.911myths.com/html/new_pearl_harbour.html
By the way, are you one of these two guys from “We Are Idiots?: http://tinyurl.com/2hu6kx
—–
“They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.”
- Thomas Brackett Reed
February 1st, 2008 at 11:44 pm
“b. j. edwards Says:
February 1st, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Obviously, you never bothered to the PNAC reports:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm
but relied on what your Truther priests told you.”
Obviously I never bothered to… do what? I’ll assume you left out “read”. I read the miscellaneous PNAC papers over FOUR years ago. LOOONG before I even questioned 9/11. But once I started researching 9/11 it was abundantly clear what role the individuals in PNAC played.
It’s funny that you would cite http://www.911myths.com/html/new_pearl_harbour.html as it is simply a REVIEW/INTERPRETATION of the PNAC literature. I can make my own interpretations thank you. Besides that site doesn’t include other information such as quotes from Zbigniew Bzrezinki or Kissinger. You can turn to ad hominem attacks all you want it still doesn’t refute the evidence.
You also can’t cover up the works that have been written and published by Bzrezinki and Rockefellar among others.
2.3 trillion dollars reported missing on 9/10/2001 and no investigation… 9/11 couldn’t possibly have been used to divert attention. No psychological warfare going on here…naaaah
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:48 am
You’re right, Mr. Shermer, all demolitions are bottom-up. End of discussion.
…and these look nothing like 9/11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ1E2NPl-s8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d77E0E46c2k&feature=related
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:56 am
I find it amazing that people would beleive that your (I’m Canadian) gov would murder their own citizens as well as those of their own allies which, if discovered could result in 1) war across the LONGEST undefended border in the world
2) shutting off of your MOST SECURE source of natural resources to conduct the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which is supposedly the whole purpose behind 9/11
3) would make protecting American soil from infiltration nearly impossible as most of t