<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Sacred Science</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/</link>
	<description>books, essays, columns, reviews, and multimedia clips of famed skeptic Michael Shermer</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 12:19:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rafe Furst</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/comment-page-1/#comment-2561</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe Furst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=480#comment-2561</guid>
		<description>I really like the thrust of this article and hope to see more from you on emergence.  Keep hanging out with Kauffman :-)

As an aside, one area I think Kauffman needs to give attention to is Cooperation (with a big C, a technical term).  There are two dynamics which give rise to emergence, one being cooperation (think multicellular organisms) and the other being autocatalysis.  Kauffman reveres the latter but mostly ignores the former.  (Forgive me and enlighten me if he&#039;s changed his tune since At Home in the Universe).

I&#039;m looking forward to reading Mind of the Market.  In this vein, I can recommend highly Beinhocker&#039;s &quot;The Origin of Wealth&quot;:http://harvardbusinessonline.hbsp.harvard.edu/b02/en/common/item_detail.jhtml?id=777X which outlines a new basis for economic theory that he calls &quot;complexity economics&quot;.  Not surprisingly, it stands in stark contrast to most economic theory.  He subtitled the book &quot;Evolution, complexity, and the radical remaking of economics.&quot;

For those looking for hardcore evidence that the efficient market hypothesis (both strong and weak forms) is dead, I recommend &quot;The Story of Behavioral Finance&quot;:http://www.amazon.com/Story-Behavioral-Finance-Brandon-Adams/dp/0595396909  I&#039;m guessing it dovetails with Mind of the Market and draws from some of the same primary sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like the thrust of this article and hope to see more from you on emergence.  Keep hanging out with Kauffman :-)</p>
<p>As an aside, one area I think Kauffman needs to give attention to is Cooperation (with a big C, a technical term).  There are two dynamics which give rise to emergence, one being cooperation (think multicellular organisms) and the other being autocatalysis.  Kauffman reveres the latter but mostly ignores the former.  (Forgive me and enlighten me if he&#8217;s changed his tune since At Home in the Universe).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to reading Mind of the Market.  In this vein, I can recommend highly Beinhocker&#8217;s &#8220;The Origin of Wealth&#8221;:<a href="http://harvardbusinessonline.hbsp.harvard.edu/b02/en/common/item_detail.jhtml?id=777X" rel="nofollow">http://harvardbusinessonline.hbsp.harvard.edu/b02/en/common/item_detail.jhtml?id=777X</a> which outlines a new basis for economic theory that he calls &#8220;complexity economics&#8221;.  Not surprisingly, it stands in stark contrast to most economic theory.  He subtitled the book &#8220;Evolution, complexity, and the radical remaking of economics.&#8221;</p>
<p>For those looking for hardcore evidence that the efficient market hypothesis (both strong and weak forms) is dead, I recommend &#8220;The Story of Behavioral Finance&#8221;:<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Story-Behavioral-Finance-Brandon-Adams/dp/0595396909" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Story-Behavioral-Finance-Brandon-Adams/dp/0595396909</a>  I&#8217;m guessing it dovetails with Mind of the Market and draws from some of the same primary sources.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: S. Beckner</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/comment-page-1/#comment-2544</link>
		<dc:creator>S. Beckner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=480#comment-2544</guid>
		<description>Like the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics, which eventually gave rise to the multiverse, and a slew of books with titles like &quot;The Tao Of Physics&quot;, or the once fashionable Chaos Theory, emergence is looking to become the espoire du jour for those who fear that science may soon tell us everything about everything. It&#039;s as if some of us are suffocating with the feeling that we are entombing ourselves within the walls of knowledge. They eagerly seek a way out of these confines, a window, no matter how small, to gaze out from their insufferable finitudes. I want to give this search an important sounding name, something like &quot;the urge to transcendence&quot;. In part because it seems to be innate in many of us, but also because it may be the emotional driving force behind some of academia&#039;s most brilliant theoreticians.

As nature&#039;s magic tricks are exposed one by one, our efforts to find an explanation-defying-illusion are beginning to cast a shadow of existential despair. How do we resolve this? Is consciousness itself going to prove to be the infinite frontier we long for? WIll each personal interpretation of the world come to be regarded as the ultimate prestidigitation, a final, unscalable rampart against the onslaughts of totalitarian, all-knowing science? Or will that veil be lifted too, leaving us naked and adrift before the unceasing number-crunch of natural  law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics, which eventually gave rise to the multiverse, and a slew of books with titles like &#8220;The Tao Of Physics&#8221;, or the once fashionable Chaos Theory, emergence is looking to become the espoire du jour for those who fear that science may soon tell us everything about everything. It&#8217;s as if some of us are suffocating with the feeling that we are entombing ourselves within the walls of knowledge. They eagerly seek a way out of these confines, a window, no matter how small, to gaze out from their insufferable finitudes. I want to give this search an important sounding name, something like &#8220;the urge to transcendence&#8221;. In part because it seems to be innate in many of us, but also because it may be the emotional driving force behind some of academia&#8217;s most brilliant theoreticians.</p>
<p>As nature&#8217;s magic tricks are exposed one by one, our efforts to find an explanation-defying-illusion are beginning to cast a shadow of existential despair. How do we resolve this? Is consciousness itself going to prove to be the infinite frontier we long for? WIll each personal interpretation of the world come to be regarded as the ultimate prestidigitation, a final, unscalable rampart against the onslaughts of totalitarian, all-knowing science? Or will that veil be lifted too, leaving us naked and adrift before the unceasing number-crunch of natural  law.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Imants Vilks</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/comment-page-1/#comment-2324</link>
		<dc:creator>Imants Vilks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=480#comment-2324</guid>
		<description>&quot;Self-organization “breaks no laws of physics” and yet cannot be explained by them.&quot; 
Self-organization can be explained by laws of physics. Self-organization is connected with creation of information. Two main tools of evolution (in a broad sense) are: random accidents and natural selection. Quantum and more macroscopic fluctuations are unpredictable, therefore - the outcomes of all processes where information is created. 
There ar three levels of emergent properties:
1. The simplest ones where we can foresee, predict the futures of the complex system, e.g., Behe&#039;s mouse trap. 
2. More complicated ones, where we can&#039;t simply foresee the systems futures, e.g., millions of all the people&#039;s inventions. 
3.Most complicated ones where we can&#039;t predict (it is impossible), foresee the system&#039;s futures, e.g., life, human society, social systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Self-organization “breaks no laws of physics” and yet cannot be explained by them.&#8221;<br />
Self-organization can be explained by laws of physics. Self-organization is connected with creation of information. Two main tools of evolution (in a broad sense) are: random accidents and natural selection. Quantum and more macroscopic fluctuations are unpredictable, therefore &#8211; the outcomes of all processes where information is created.<br />
There ar three levels of emergent properties:<br />
1. The simplest ones where we can foresee, predict the futures of the complex system, e.g., Behe&#8217;s mouse trap.<br />
2. More complicated ones, where we can&#8217;t simply foresee the systems futures, e.g., millions of all the people&#8217;s inventions.<br />
3.Most complicated ones where we can&#8217;t predict (it is impossible), foresee the system&#8217;s futures, e.g., life, human society, social systems.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Philips (aka The Undercover Philosopher)</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/comment-page-1/#comment-2297</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Philips (aka The Undercover Philosopher)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=480#comment-2297</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a bit confused about what people mean by &quot;spirituality&quot; and &quot;the spiritual&quot; in this discussion and on the street.  There seem to be two main possibilities:  1) that &quot;the spiritual&quot; requires an ontological underpinning, the kind of nonmaterial substance that scientific materialism rejects (a soul or mind, i.e., dualism); and 2) that spirituality is a simply a stance toward life and the world,  attitude that makes and requires no nonmaterial claims (Kaufman speaks of an attitude of awe, gratitude, and respect).  

If we mean the first, any physicalist version of reductionism is inconsistent with spiritualism (and physicalist versions are the only ones people take seriously nowadays).  This is because reductionism holds that higher level things really are nothing more than collections of lower level things.  Water really is just collections of particles—so are money, Supreme Court Justices, and the set of all real numbers.  All of them really nothing but clusters of ever changing subatomic particles wending and popping their ways through and about space-time.  If that staggeringly hypothesis is true, then either 1) mind and spirit really are just collections of subatomic particles (like everything else) or  2) the words &#039;mind&#039; and &#039;spirit&#039; are just empty noises to which there corresponds nothing real.  In either case, &quot;spiritual&quot; has no rightful place in the vocabularies of enlightened people.  Also, since reductionism has this consequence and versions of emergentism denies it, reductionism is inconsistent with those versions of emergentism (the most popular versions).  

But spiritualism of the second kind--spirituality as an attitude of awe, gratitude and appreciation—has nothing to fear from reductionism.  That form of spirituality—that attitude—requires no metaphysical underpinnings.  Who is to say which kind of universe is more awe-inspiring and deserving of our gratitude and respect?  Isn&#039;t this more a personal matter?  Would the things of the world that actually inspire awe, gratitude and respect in those who are so inspired—for example, the transforming power of love, the diversity of life forms, the ancient redwoods, the way we can be penetrated to our depths by beauty—be any less deserving of our awe, gratitude and respect if we were reductionists rather than emergentists?  The rather abstract &quot;realization&quot; that higher level systems emerge out of lower level systems and liberate themselves from the causal laws governing those lower level systems may be rather thrilling to some of us, but so may the rather abstract &quot;realization&quot; that those lower level systems have within them the power to produce and to govern every higher level one.  Are we really back to the good old days when deep metaphysical thinkers debated about the best of all possible standards for judging the best of all possible worlds (the one most worthy of our awe, respect, and gratitude)?  Or is the more sensible attitude different strokes for different folks?  It&#039;s worth noting that spirituality in the attitudinal sense has happily survived in the age of  reductionism and there is no reason to believe it&#039;s prospects will brighten further with the emergence of emergentism.  Actually, the greatest threat to spirituality in the attitudinal sense are certain philosophical and religious traditions that embrace spirituality of the metaphysical kind; traditions which devalue this world and it&#039;s beauty and regard all bodily pleasures with suspicion or outright hostility (for example, Platonism and all Augustinian-inspired versions of Christianity).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a bit confused about what people mean by &#8220;spirituality&#8221; and &#8220;the spiritual&#8221; in this discussion and on the street.  There seem to be two main possibilities:  1) that &#8220;the spiritual&#8221; requires an ontological underpinning, the kind of nonmaterial substance that scientific materialism rejects (a soul or mind, i.e., dualism); and 2) that spirituality is a simply a stance toward life and the world,  attitude that makes and requires no nonmaterial claims (Kaufman speaks of an attitude of awe, gratitude, and respect).  </p>
<p>If we mean the first, any physicalist version of reductionism is inconsistent with spiritualism (and physicalist versions are the only ones people take seriously nowadays).  This is because reductionism holds that higher level things really are nothing more than collections of lower level things.  Water really is just collections of particles—so are money, Supreme Court Justices, and the set of all real numbers.  All of them really nothing but clusters of ever changing subatomic particles wending and popping their ways through and about space-time.  If that staggeringly hypothesis is true, then either 1) mind and spirit really are just collections of subatomic particles (like everything else) or  2) the words &#8216;mind&#8217; and &#8216;spirit&#8217; are just empty noises to which there corresponds nothing real.  In either case, &#8220;spiritual&#8221; has no rightful place in the vocabularies of enlightened people.  Also, since reductionism has this consequence and versions of emergentism denies it, reductionism is inconsistent with those versions of emergentism (the most popular versions).  </p>
<p>But spiritualism of the second kind&#8211;spirituality as an attitude of awe, gratitude and appreciation—has nothing to fear from reductionism.  That form of spirituality—that attitude—requires no metaphysical underpinnings.  Who is to say which kind of universe is more awe-inspiring and deserving of our gratitude and respect?  Isn&#8217;t this more a personal matter?  Would the things of the world that actually inspire awe, gratitude and respect in those who are so inspired—for example, the transforming power of love, the diversity of life forms, the ancient redwoods, the way we can be penetrated to our depths by beauty—be any less deserving of our awe, gratitude and respect if we were reductionists rather than emergentists?  The rather abstract &#8220;realization&#8221; that higher level systems emerge out of lower level systems and liberate themselves from the causal laws governing those lower level systems may be rather thrilling to some of us, but so may the rather abstract &#8220;realization&#8221; that those lower level systems have within them the power to produce and to govern every higher level one.  Are we really back to the good old days when deep metaphysical thinkers debated about the best of all possible standards for judging the best of all possible worlds (the one most worthy of our awe, respect, and gratitude)?  Or is the more sensible attitude different strokes for different folks?  It&#8217;s worth noting that spirituality in the attitudinal sense has happily survived in the age of  reductionism and there is no reason to believe it&#8217;s prospects will brighten further with the emergence of emergentism.  Actually, the greatest threat to spirituality in the attitudinal sense are certain philosophical and religious traditions that embrace spirituality of the metaphysical kind; traditions which devalue this world and it&#8217;s beauty and regard all bodily pleasures with suspicion or outright hostility (for example, Platonism and all Augustinian-inspired versions of Christianity).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aaron Harbour</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/comment-page-1/#comment-2286</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Harbour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=480#comment-2286</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m uncertain what difference the direction, inward or outward, of applying the methodologies of science makes.  Though the majority of scientific work completed could be described as reductionism I don&#039;t think that science is inherently as such and thus unable to grapple with problems of complexity without hiding in the spiritual.  More specifically, having the ghost of spirituality as a magic end to potential further scientific development seems defeatist and adds nothing to the wealth of human knowledge</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m uncertain what difference the direction, inward or outward, of applying the methodologies of science makes.  Though the majority of scientific work completed could be described as reductionism I don&#8217;t think that science is inherently as such and thus unable to grapple with problems of complexity without hiding in the spiritual.  More specifically, having the ghost of spirituality as a magic end to potential further scientific development seems defeatist and adds nothing to the wealth of human knowledge</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bill Newnam</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/comment-page-1/#comment-2281</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Newnam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:53:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=480#comment-2281</guid>
		<description>With regard to the title of the piece, to call reductionism a spell is to mischaracterize one of the triumphs of science, adopted to seek understanding of deep reality. To grapple with emergence is not hindered by the insights gained from reductionism. Nor do I think it necessary to imagine a lost spirituality ever in oblivious nature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regard to the title of the piece, to call reductionism a spell is to mischaracterize one of the triumphs of science, adopted to seek understanding of deep reality. To grapple with emergence is not hindered by the insights gained from reductionism. Nor do I think it necessary to imagine a lost spirituality ever in oblivious nature.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/comment-page-1/#comment-2279</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=480#comment-2279</guid>
		<description>Uniqueness of earth?  We have found thousands of extrasolar planets, many of them very much like earth.  Just because something is unique means that it is a miracle?  Each pile of cow dung is unique.  So, that cow dung is a miracle?
Ridiculous.
The fact that we fit so well into our environment here on Earth is perfectly explained by evolution.  If we didn&#039;t fit within Earth&#039;s parameters, we would die and fail to reproduce and we wouldn&#039;t be here.  So the only logical conclusion of evolution is that all of the species that exist must fit well into the &quot;contingencies necessary for life.&quot;  If we were created by an all-powerful being, then why would he/she have made it so that we can only survive on this planet and just barely?  One theory leads to an actual conclusion, the other &quot;theory&quot; leads nowhere.
No miracle, just science.
IMO, Raquel&#039;s opinion doesn&#039;t make any sense at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uniqueness of earth?  We have found thousands of extrasolar planets, many of them very much like earth.  Just because something is unique means that it is a miracle?  Each pile of cow dung is unique.  So, that cow dung is a miracle?<br />
Ridiculous.<br />
The fact that we fit so well into our environment here on Earth is perfectly explained by evolution.  If we didn&#8217;t fit within Earth&#8217;s parameters, we would die and fail to reproduce and we wouldn&#8217;t be here.  So the only logical conclusion of evolution is that all of the species that exist must fit well into the &#8220;contingencies necessary for life.&#8221;  If we were created by an all-powerful being, then why would he/she have made it so that we can only survive on this planet and just barely?  One theory leads to an actual conclusion, the other &#8220;theory&#8221; leads nowhere.<br />
No miracle, just science.<br />
IMO, Raquel&#8217;s opinion doesn&#8217;t make any sense at all.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Raquel Baranow</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/comment-page-1/#comment-2277</link>
		<dc:creator>Raquel Baranow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=480#comment-2277</guid>
		<description>IMO, the uniqueness of Earth -- all the contingentcies necessary for life is a miracle. Earth really is &quot;Sacred&quot; and we should appreciate it more!

From my website: http://www.666ismoney.com/RareEarth.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMO, the uniqueness of Earth &#8212; all the contingentcies necessary for life is a miracle. Earth really is &#8220;Sacred&#8221; and we should appreciate it more!</p>
<p>From my website: <a href="http://www.666ismoney.com/RareEarth.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.666ismoney.com/RareEarth.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ragged Clown &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A God worthy of worship</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2008/07/sacred-science/comment-page-1/#comment-2276</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragged Clown &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A God worthy of worship</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=480#comment-2276</guid>
		<description>[...] Michael Shermer has a review of Stuart Kauffman&#8217;s Reinventing the Sacred. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Michael Shermer has a review of Stuart Kauffman&#8217;s Reinventing the Sacred. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

