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	<title>Comments on: Debating &#8220;Miracles&#8221; on Premier Christian Radio</title>
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	<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/</link>
	<description>books, essays, columns, reviews, and multimedia clips of famed skeptic Michael Shermer</description>
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		<title>By: alephbet</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-4026</link>
		<dc:creator>alephbet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-4026</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m responding to a dead topic but I listened to the debate on Nightline a few weeks ago. What I read today makes me feel like commenting even if it&#039;s not read: 

&quot;Michael Shermer, a well-known atheist, says miraculous claims always have a natural explanation.&quot; 

This is so ironical, that&#039;s why the problem exists. There&#039;s a natural world explanation (the world of appearances) and a purely personally explanation always. The synchronization of inner and outer world content is the &#039;miracle&#039;.  The difference between psychosis and personal revelation is found in William James, its comforting to know that he recognized that a thin veil of language separates the world of appearances from another world. The doubleness of life has been well established. That&#039;s one reason for the word &#039;synchronicity&#039; to have been made up, or &#039;meaningful coincidence&#039;, a term that is quite accurate, strings of events that happen over decades are very convincing. Science doesn&#039;t go there.  Personally I wouldn&#039;t abandon string theory. Biology with its cell  which demands &quot;replicate thyself&quot; and the atom are synchronized already in every movement by a living organism. And everything seems to be alive on some scale. 

The irony is that the &#039;medium is the message&#039; to re-use a quotation from Noam Chomsky. Any idea that has the extension through Time that religion  has, must have some basis and some reason for it&#039;s continuation. The word &#039;miracle&#039; is so inappropriate in the present because everything was once a miracle.

Occam&#039;s Razor doesn&#039;t necessarily state that the simplest explanation is true, it states that once all extraneous material is removed, the details that remain are enough to reveal the facts. A movie is an example, isn&#039;t it? 

It&#039;s so sad that the question of whether Jesus was real obscures the fact that the story of that life contains new ideas that no other religious leader revealed: &quot;There is a father in heaven&quot;, there is another world than the physical world, a kingdom and it is within you.&quot; That doesn&#039;t require proof of any kind other than can be found by comparing the content of that messenger  to other &#039;messengers&#039; from that hidden world. There are differences. Love as we think of it wants what it wants. There must be a scientific basis yet to be recognized for &#039;do unto others as you would have done to you&#039; and&#039;love your neighbor as yourself. 

 In the past 25 years I&#039;ve witnessed and received miracles both physical and mentally apprehensible,every one on the planet has received something that was fantasy less than 50 years ago. 

The recognition of new information has almost always occurred in one mind that went against the tide of the &#039;status quo&#039;. The greatest irony is that every person&#039;s life contains the unexplainable kind of incidents that happen only to an individual, that can convince that person they are being related to and directed uniquely, not merely as a speck but as an individual &#039;viewing point&#039; on the planet. The collective itself is very difficult to convince</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m responding to a dead topic but I listened to the debate on Nightline a few weeks ago. What I read today makes me feel like commenting even if it&#8217;s not read: </p>
<p>&#8220;Michael Shermer, a well-known atheist, says miraculous claims always have a natural explanation.&#8221; </p>
<p>This is so ironical, that&#8217;s why the problem exists. There&#8217;s a natural world explanation (the world of appearances) and a purely personally explanation always. The synchronization of inner and outer world content is the &#8216;miracle&#8217;.  The difference between psychosis and personal revelation is found in William James, its comforting to know that he recognized that a thin veil of language separates the world of appearances from another world. The doubleness of life has been well established. That&#8217;s one reason for the word &#8216;synchronicity&#8217; to have been made up, or &#8216;meaningful coincidence&#8217;, a term that is quite accurate, strings of events that happen over decades are very convincing. Science doesn&#8217;t go there.  Personally I wouldn&#8217;t abandon string theory. Biology with its cell  which demands &#8220;replicate thyself&#8221; and the atom are synchronized already in every movement by a living organism. And everything seems to be alive on some scale. </p>
<p>The irony is that the &#8216;medium is the message&#8217; to re-use a quotation from Noam Chomsky. Any idea that has the extension through Time that religion  has, must have some basis and some reason for it&#8217;s continuation. The word &#8216;miracle&#8217; is so inappropriate in the present because everything was once a miracle.</p>
<p>Occam&#8217;s Razor doesn&#8217;t necessarily state that the simplest explanation is true, it states that once all extraneous material is removed, the details that remain are enough to reveal the facts. A movie is an example, isn&#8217;t it? </p>
<p>It&#8217;s so sad that the question of whether Jesus was real obscures the fact that the story of that life contains new ideas that no other religious leader revealed: &#8220;There is a father in heaven&#8221;, there is another world than the physical world, a kingdom and it is within you.&#8221; That doesn&#8217;t require proof of any kind other than can be found by comparing the content of that messenger  to other &#8216;messengers&#8217; from that hidden world. There are differences. Love as we think of it wants what it wants. There must be a scientific basis yet to be recognized for &#8216;do unto others as you would have done to you&#8217; and&#8217;love your neighbor as yourself. </p>
<p> In the past 25 years I&#8217;ve witnessed and received miracles both physical and mentally apprehensible,every one on the planet has received something that was fantasy less than 50 years ago. </p>
<p>The recognition of new information has almost always occurred in one mind that went against the tide of the &#8216;status quo&#8217;. The greatest irony is that every person&#8217;s life contains the unexplainable kind of incidents that happen only to an individual, that can convince that person they are being related to and directed uniquely, not merely as a speck but as an individual &#8216;viewing point&#8217; on the planet. The collective itself is very difficult to convince</p>
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		<title>By: Amicus</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-3684</link>
		<dc:creator>Amicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-3684</guid>
		<description>Mark:  Point well taken and thanks for the great Onion reference; somehow I had missed it. I also agree that Dan Barker&#039;s &quot;Godless&quot; is a great read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark:  Point well taken and thanks for the great Onion reference; somehow I had missed it. I also agree that Dan Barker&#8217;s &#8220;Godless&#8221; is a great read.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-3679</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-3679</guid>
		<description>As for miracles only being for the good, The Onion envisioned them with a somewhat negative outcome:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28812</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for miracles only being for the good, The Onion envisioned them with a somewhat negative outcome:<br />
<a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28812" rel="nofollow">http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28812</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-3664</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 19:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-3664</guid>
		<description>Hi Amicus and the rest of you seeking rational and happy lives,

I think that it can make a big difference.  Most Christians think that they have theological, moral, and historic backing for their faith.  Once Christians grasp both the complete lack of historic evidence for JC and the positive evidence that he&#039;s just a myth, they lose a leg of their tripod.  Cognitive dissonance can ensue.  Some will question their beliefs and realize the many lies that they&#039;ve been fed.  This is what happened to Dan Barker (of FFRF.org).  He was a fundie evangelist preacher who started to question the historicity of JC.  In his own words, he threw out all the bath water and found that there was no baby.  This started him down the path to atheism, and he&#039;s now a great evangelist for rational thought.  His book &quot;Godless&quot; is excellent.  http://www.ffrf.org/books

See also (by Dan Barker):
&quot;Debunking the Historical Jesus&quot;
http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2006/march/barker.php

Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead?
http://www.ffrf.org/about/bybarker/rise.php

For many more articles, see &quot;Christian Historicity&quot; at
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Debate.html#hist</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Amicus and the rest of you seeking rational and happy lives,</p>
<p>I think that it can make a big difference.  Most Christians think that they have theological, moral, and historic backing for their faith.  Once Christians grasp both the complete lack of historic evidence for JC and the positive evidence that he&#8217;s just a myth, they lose a leg of their tripod.  Cognitive dissonance can ensue.  Some will question their beliefs and realize the many lies that they&#8217;ve been fed.  This is what happened to Dan Barker (of FFRF.org).  He was a fundie evangelist preacher who started to question the historicity of JC.  In his own words, he threw out all the bath water and found that there was no baby.  This started him down the path to atheism, and he&#8217;s now a great evangelist for rational thought.  His book &#8220;Godless&#8221; is excellent.  <a href="http://www.ffrf.org/books" rel="nofollow">http://www.ffrf.org/books</a></p>
<p>See also (by Dan Barker):<br />
&#8220;Debunking the Historical Jesus&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2006/march/barker.php" rel="nofollow">http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2006/march/barker.php</a></p>
<p>Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead?<br />
<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/about/bybarker/rise.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.ffrf.org/about/bybarker/rise.php</a></p>
<p>For many more articles, see &#8220;Christian Historicity&#8221; at<br />
<a href="http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Debate.html#hist" rel="nofollow">http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Debate.html#hist</a></p>
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		<title>By: Amicus</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-3639</link>
		<dc:creator>Amicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-3639</guid>
		<description>I have always found it amusing that, to &quot;believers,&quot; miracles are ONLY low probability occurrences with POSITIVE outcomes; &quot;God&quot; apparently controls only the good stuff.  Has anyone ever heard the term use to describe someone&#039;s being struck by lightening? Why isn&#039;t the death of a child from measles every bit as much a miracle as the survival of one with leukemia?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have always found it amusing that, to &#8220;believers,&#8221; miracles are ONLY low probability occurrences with POSITIVE outcomes; &#8220;God&#8221; apparently controls only the good stuff.  Has anyone ever heard the term use to describe someone&#8217;s being struck by lightening? Why isn&#8217;t the death of a child from measles every bit as much a miracle as the survival of one with leukemia?</p>
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		<title>By: Amicus</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-3638</link>
		<dc:creator>Amicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-3638</guid>
		<description>Mark Thomas:  My understanding is as yours, that references to Jesus attributed to Tacitus and Josephus are bogus.  But does it really matter? It seems to me that there are any number of &quot;real world&quot; reasons that a small splinter sect surrounding one of the many itinerant apocalyptic preachers of Judaism could evolve first into a movement (by then pretty much &quot;Paulianity&quot;) with enough political influence to win over an Emperor and then be spread by force, coercion and evangelizing. (Rodney Stark&#039;s &quot;The Rise of Christianity&quot; provides a good example.) Why should we quibble? Even if Tacitus and Josephus actually did refer in passing to a fellow named Jesus who the Romans saw as a troublemaker and crucified him, what would that &quot;prove&quot; about all of the other nonsense that is attributed to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark Thomas:  My understanding is as yours, that references to Jesus attributed to Tacitus and Josephus are bogus.  But does it really matter? It seems to me that there are any number of &#8220;real world&#8221; reasons that a small splinter sect surrounding one of the many itinerant apocalyptic preachers of Judaism could evolve first into a movement (by then pretty much &#8220;Paulianity&#8221;) with enough political influence to win over an Emperor and then be spread by force, coercion and evangelizing. (Rodney Stark&#8217;s &#8220;The Rise of Christianity&#8221; provides a good example.) Why should we quibble? Even if Tacitus and Josephus actually did refer in passing to a fellow named Jesus who the Romans saw as a troublemaker and crucified him, what would that &#8220;prove&#8221; about all of the other nonsense that is attributed to him.</p>
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		<title>By: P K Narayanan</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-3522</link>
		<dc:creator>P K Narayanan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 13:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-3522</guid>
		<description>Sure enough, reporter of miracle is hardcore lier and a calculated cheat. But then what about the one who experiences miracle? &quot;All who experience miracles, all who have experienced miracles, all who talk about truthfulness of miracles are people needing corrective therapy.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure enough, reporter of miracle is hardcore lier and a calculated cheat. But then what about the one who experiences miracle? &#8220;All who experience miracles, all who have experienced miracles, all who talk about truthfulness of miracles are people needing corrective therapy.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-3519</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-3519</guid>
		<description>&quot;Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie?  We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is, therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie.&quot;
— Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie?  We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is, therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie.&#8221;<br />
— Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1794)</p>
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		<title>By: P K Narayanan(Dr)</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-3485</link>
		<dc:creator>P K Narayanan(Dr)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 07:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-3485</guid>
		<description>A miracle is generally explained as a sensory experience caused by supernatural and extra sensory perceptions. Extra sensory perception is attributed to a (non-existing)Sixth Sense. Religious faithfuls have several explanations for the experience of miracles. In my rational opinion, we should have to admit that the experience of miracles by the gullible believers is true. They percieve miracles out of thier deranged mental condition. Their delusional cerebral function brings in hallucinatory perceptions of extra sensory and supernatural experiences. This is the case of innocent believers. But what about the evangelists, god men and the ilk? They manipulate things to cheat the gullible believers. Therefore the fact remains that &quot;the innocent and the gullible experiences miracles out of his/her deranged condition. The crooks and the cheats make miracles out of their wickedness.&quot;

For the purpose of scientific evaluations, a miracle can be defined as follows:

&#039;A miracle is an event or an occurence beyond the level of being objectively understood or deciphered by an individual or a group of individuals, at a given time or situation&#039;. (Reference: Psychosomatic Structure of Miracles - Dr. P K Narayanan)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A miracle is generally explained as a sensory experience caused by supernatural and extra sensory perceptions. Extra sensory perception is attributed to a (non-existing)Sixth Sense. Religious faithfuls have several explanations for the experience of miracles. In my rational opinion, we should have to admit that the experience of miracles by the gullible believers is true. They percieve miracles out of thier deranged mental condition. Their delusional cerebral function brings in hallucinatory perceptions of extra sensory and supernatural experiences. This is the case of innocent believers. But what about the evangelists, god men and the ilk? They manipulate things to cheat the gullible believers. Therefore the fact remains that &#8220;the innocent and the gullible experiences miracles out of his/her deranged condition. The crooks and the cheats make miracles out of their wickedness.&#8221;</p>
<p>For the purpose of scientific evaluations, a miracle can be defined as follows:</p>
<p>&#8216;A miracle is an event or an occurence beyond the level of being objectively understood or deciphered by an individual or a group of individuals, at a given time or situation&#8217;. (Reference: Psychosomatic Structure of Miracles &#8211; Dr. P K Narayanan)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/07/do-miracles-exist/comment-page-1/#comment-3475</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.michaelshermer.com/?p=932#comment-3475</guid>
		<description>Apparently, Mr. Dunlap did not take the time to read my article (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/JesusExist.htm).  He mentioned a supposed reference to Jesus by Tacitus, but doesn&#039;t seem to know that this &quot;reference&quot; was probably added in the 1400&#039;s -- because no mention is made to it in any known text prior to then.

The other &quot;historical reference&quot; that people often use is in the writings (about 93 CE) attributed to the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.  This is also an obvious forgery.

I checked out the website for Bart Erhman&#039;s course, and he seems to not deal with these problems.

I repeat, there is no reliable evidence that Jesus ever even existed.  The epistles and gospels were explicitly not written by eyewitnesses, and no first century historian even referred to Jesus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently, Mr. Dunlap did not take the time to read my article (<a href="http://www.godlessgeeks.com/JesusExist.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.godlessgeeks.com/JesusExist.htm</a>).  He mentioned a supposed reference to Jesus by Tacitus, but doesn&#8217;t seem to know that this &#8220;reference&#8221; was probably added in the 1400&#8242;s &#8212; because no mention is made to it in any known text prior to then.</p>
<p>The other &#8220;historical reference&#8221; that people often use is in the writings (about 93 CE) attributed to the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.  This is also an obvious forgery.</p>
<p>I checked out the website for Bart Erhman&#8217;s course, and he seems to not deal with these problems.</p>
<p>I repeat, there is no reliable evidence that Jesus ever even existed.  The epistles and gospels were explicitly not written by eyewitnesses, and no first century historian even referred to Jesus.</p>
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